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Gambhir or Jaffer???

R_D

International Debutant
Ah only reason i discount that inning is because surely that pitch wasn't int standard.. any tom dick and harry could've scored on that pitch. Shewag and Dravid had amassive 400 odd runs opening stand.. it was such a joke of pitch that any runs scored on it shouldn't really be used to credit a player.

Sehwag has shown inabiliy to improve his defecencies (sp?); more often than not you see him go out same way. That shows to me the guy is lazy arse and so complacent that he's not working hard enough to retain his spot in the team. He's taken his spot for granted so doesn't feel the need to work on his game. He's been found out by bowlers and its been a known fact for couple of years now and fact remains he hasn't really done much to show he's going to overcome these chinks in his armour . So really needs to be shown the door to tell him that he's not untouchable and that he needs to score to be part of the team.

I
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
I would have Gambhir and Jaffer at the top of the order and have Sehwag in the middle order, his too good a batsmen to drop.
Not in ODIs. Quick hitting is easier and more effective with the powerplays, the new ball and against pace bowlers.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I think there is a tendency,moreso in India, to put a premium on the quality of backfoot play and defensive technique when assessing suitability for opening in test matches. Of course, it disappears as a criteria when someone like Sehwag comes around and hammers all bowlers with an all-out-aggression approach but its true by and large.

This has come from following the English system from the beginning of cricket in this country and one cant find too much wrong with it. Afterall, the greatest opening batsmen in India (Merchant, Gavaskar and Hanif in neighbouring Pakistan) and in England (Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton) have been in this mould.

This style has also been, in India, associated with Bombay batsmen and their propensity to play long innings. They just seemed to go on and on and on and this was due to their rock solid defence, superb technique against mental toughness. The speed of scoring and the match situation, apparently, did not come into the picture.

The strokeplayers came lower down the order and the big hitters further down. One suspects that inspite of the big influence of the limited overs game in the longer version, we havent really discarded this criteria, neither in India nor, one suspects, in England. Gavaskar and Hobbs continue to be the role models and the Mushtaq Ali's and Sehwags as the errant genius who occupied that place because we are just not fortunate enough to have two (mostly even one) Gavaskars available at the same time.

There is a logic and reasoning behind it for sure. The early moving ball, delivered by those capable of breaking your ribs too, is best negotiated by a solid backfoot technique, a good overall defense, a bat as straight and for as long into the stroke as possible and most importantly an uncanny and precise understanding of where your stumps are. The last not so much to play perfect strokes as to be able to leave all those balls alone that cant be profitably (and safely) scored off but are not going to hit the stumps. It is a great quality and differentiates the most successful openers (often enough to be taken on board as a pre-requisite) from those who would do better elsewhere in the order.

The changes in the attitude of batsmen around the world brought about by decades of limited overs game, the example of the West Indian dashers for even longer (although Conrad Hunte remains the epitome of the perfect openers for the West Indian connoisseur) and the general discarding of safety first methods by batsmen around the world hasnt changed much in India and one suspects in England.

Hence a Jaffer is always considered a far more suitable test opener than a Gambhir. The examples of Jayasuriya, Tendulkar, Gilchrist and others at the top of the order in ODI's has changed that completely for the limited overs game with the result that the exact reverse is considered true for the one day game. A Jaffer is, hence a complete misfit in the shorter version. So goes conventional logic.

The fact that this cant be an absolute truth doesnt seem to matter much unless a dasher makes it to opening in tests due to shortage od options or a stodgy batsman like Atapattu does the same in the shorter game for similar reasons and produces reasonable success. And even then this is, in some corner of the head, put down to an exception to the rule rather than an acceptabe new way of looking at opening.

And so we and, more importantly, the selectors will continue to think. Its easy to agree with this thinking, and I do, but the tragedy is that it may, at times make us miss an exciting option like another Mushtaq Ali or a Sehwag in the making for tests and never truly appreciate the fantastic value of a Merchant, with his masterly placement of the ball, uncanny judgement for singles, the pure cricketing strokes to never slacken the run rate even if never being explosive and of being the player around him a him a HUGE total can be built in match after match.
 
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Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
This style has also been, in India, associated with Bombay batsmen and their propensity to play long innings.
Mumbai has had two styles of batting historically associated with the two famous clubs it has.

That is a slight point however. On the larger point, interesting aspects raised. India has had the tendency to go for the more defensive opener, yes, for various reasons. We can deduce it as a result of millions of things. In the recent past, one aspect which influenced was the Gavaskar style of batting. So many batsmen wanted to bat like Gavaskar. Historically too, the same can be traced.

However, I do not generally agree that the defensive opener is the best kind of opener. As the saying goes, attack is the best form of defence. Even a Langer was so much more potent when he improved his attacking game play. Ideally, I would like a defensive and attacking combination at the top but if I had to chose between the two who have around the same ability, I would always select the more attacking batsman.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
IMO strokeplaying openers rarely work in Tests when the bowling's good. Look at most of the best openers before this current (post-2001\02) era - strokeplayers like Michael Slater and Saeed Anwar were always in an extreme minority.

Indeed, West Indies' lack of opening batsmen (in the modern, post-1970, era, only 3 have stood-out - Fredericks, Greenidge and Haynes) is sometimes put down to "hit de ball, man". A little simplistic, perhaps, but on the right track IMO.

How many of the best openers 1970-2001\02 were strokeplayers? I can't think of too many aside from the aforementioned 5.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
IMO strokeplaying openers rarely work in Tests when the bowling's good. Look at most of the best openers before this current (post-2001\02) era - strokeplayers like Michael Slater and Saeed Anwar were always in an extreme minority.

Indeed, West Indies' lack of opening batsmen (in the modern, post-1970, era, only 3 have stood-out - Fredericks, Greenidge and Haynes) is sometimes put down to "hit de ball, man". A little simplistic, perhaps, but on the right track IMO.

How many of the best openers 1970-2001\02 were strokeplayers? I can't think of too many aside from the aforementioned 5.
I agree.

And thats why Jaffer will be prefered to Gambhir unless Jaffer has a very bad run
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
IMO strokeplaying openers rarely work in Tests when the bowling's good. Look at most of the best openers before this current (post-2001\02) era - strokeplayers like Michael Slater and Saeed Anwar were always in an extreme minority.

Indeed, West Indies' lack of opening batsmen (in the modern, post-1970, era, only 3 have stood-out - Fredericks, Greenidge and Haynes) is sometimes put down to "hit de ball, man". A little simplistic, perhaps, but on the right track IMO.

How many of the best openers 1970-2001\02 were strokeplayers? I can't think of too many aside from the aforementioned 5.
Yep, stroke players are definitely rarer but my point was not about who is rarer or not, but who I would prefer.

x average of 45 s/r of 30.
y average of 45 s/r of 60.

I would prefer y. Now people might argue that the rate at which runs are scored isn't important but it really is in a lot of respects. It means it can put the opposition on the back foot, change the line of the bowlers which can help the batsman at the other end and the like.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Currently, I cannot express my views as brilliantly as SJS but I'll try...

I believe that Jaffer and Karthik are the perfect combination at the top of the order for tests for the following reasons. Jaffer and Karthik both have a solid defence and fine shot selection, something which is critical for negotiating the new ball in Test matches with no obligation to score quickly. In their one partnership together, they mustered 153 in 56 overs at a far from poor run rate of 2.73. Don't get me started on the fact that the partnership was changed next innings but in the event it leads to an early wicket, the solid (and classy) number three who more often that not will build a large partnership. All this with the brilliance of VVS Laxman (who can negotiate spinners who no doubt will be used at this stage) well and Ganguly and Tendulkar, both brilliant batsman. The versatile Dhoni can slot in here and play to the situation too. But that is WAY off the point.

Sounds like a simple choice but one must rermember the successful attacking strokeplay at the beginning of a test match and how successful that has been. Then turning to Gautam Gambhir (25), you can see that he is 4 years younger than Jaffer (29) and averages two more than Jaffer. Gambhir at 52 and Jaffer at 50. So, why not play all three, well then you are a bowler short unless you drop Dhoni in Tests which creates the whole 'same ODI same test team?' conundrum! No conclusion, but a lot of interesting points.
 

viktor

State Vice-Captain
Yep, stroke players are definitely rarer but my point was not about who is rarer or not, but who I would prefer.

x average of 45 s/r of 30.
y average of 45 s/r of 60.

I would prefer y. Now people might argue that the rate at which runs are scored isn't important but it really is in a lot of respects. It means it can put the opposition on the back foot, change the line of the bowlers which can help the batsman at the other end and the like.
While I won't argue that the strike rate isn't important, in Test matches, the time you spend at the crease is also important. It helps build partnerships.
So y is on an average going to face about only 75 balls in an innings, less than a session while x will face double the number of balls and set a partnership going. So, if you have stroke players at the other end, I would prefer x.

Of course currently I would prefer both to Sehwag but thats because I just saw him throw his wicket away twice.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
S/R is also important in Tests due to the intimidation factor and the fact that you can get a bowler off his rhythm very very quickly. However, it is usually rare that a batsman can do this with any regularity (Richards, Gilly, Lara, Tendulkar on song could).

In general, at the top of the order, I'd take average of 45 with S/R of 30 over average of 45 with an S/R of 60 (at the moment I'd take either obviously, but if I had to choose one, it would the former). Why? Well, for one thing, Indian middle order tends to be vulnerable to the new ball when its swinging a lot or if its a good pace attack in foreign conditions. I want my opener to not only score runs, but just as importantly, to see off the new ball. I want him to be there for the first session of play, and get the team through unscathed. I can generally be confident of a couple middle order knuckleheads playing way too many shots and improving the scoring rate (and losing wickets), so I need my top order to provide solidity.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yep, stroke players are definitely rarer but my point was not about who is rarer or not, but who I would prefer.

x average of 45 s/r of 30.
y average of 45 s/r of 60.

I would prefer y. Now people might argue that the rate at which runs are scored isn't important but it really is in a lot of respects. It means it can put the opposition on the back foot, change the line of the bowlers which can help the batsman at the other end and the like.
Oh, yes. Obviously if two averages are near enough exactly the same and one his a higher strike-rate the higher strike-rated player is probably going to be the more useful. The most important reason of all, of course, which you didn't mention, is that the faster you score the more overs you get to bowl yourself.

I do sometimes feel, though, that someone who scores more slowly is often rated lower unfairly. Ponting and Kallis would be an obvious example.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
S/R is also important in Tests due to the intimidation factor and the fact that you can get a bowler off his rhythm very very quickly. However, it is usually rare that a batsman can do this with any regularity (Richards, Gilly, Lara, Tendulkar on song could).

In general, at the top of the order, I'd take average of 45 with S/R of 30 over average of 45 with an S/R of 60 (at the moment I'd take either obviously, but if I had to choose one, it would the former). Why? Well, for one thing, Indian middle order tends to be vulnerable to the new ball when its swinging a lot or if its a good pace attack in foreign conditions. I want my opener to not only score runs, but just as importantly, to see off the new ball. I want him to be there for the first session of play, and get the team through unscathed. I can generally be confident of a couple middle order knuckleheads playing way too many shots and improving the scoring rate (and losing wickets), so I need my top order to provide solidity.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
While I won't argue that the strike rate isn't important, in Test matches, the time you spend at the crease is also important. It helps build partnerships.
So y is on an average going to face about only 75 balls in an innings, less than a session while x will face double the number of balls and set a partnership going. So, if you have stroke players at the other end, I would prefer x.
Yeah a stroke player and a defensive player is usually the ideal combination.

Note: Mine were general observations and I wasn't saying who I would selelct between Gambhir and Jaffer. We cannot make a decision based on such general observations in India's case because beggars can't be choosers and where India and opening is concerned, any one who can do the job is good enough. Attacking, defensive, any thing will do.
 
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viktor

State Vice-Captain
Yeah a stroke player and a defensive player is usually the ideal combination.

Note: Mine were general observations and I wasn't saying who I would selelct between Gambhir and Jaffer. We cannot make a decision based on such general observations in India's case because beggars can't be choosers and where India and opening is concerned, any one who can do the job is good enough. Attacking, defensive, any thing will do.
Sure. In India's case, anyway, if Karthick were to open regularly, then it might come down to an opening pairing of Jaffer v Karthick and Gambhir v Sehwag.
 

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