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Thread: The Latest Comparison - Ponting or Chappell?

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    International Captain LongHopCassidy's Avatar
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    The Latest Comparison - Ponting or Chappell?

    In light of Ponting's recent orgies of run-making, he's being bandied about as being superior to Greg Chappell (in terms of batsmanship, of course).

    Do you agree? Do they compare in fielding and captaincy as well?
    Last edited by LongHopCassidy; 18-04-2006 at 06:01 AM.
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    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Chappell for me has the "best Australian after Bradman" spot down, for now ahead of Ponting and Waugh. Ponting is obviously pretty close to the mark though, and I think at the end of his career he might well be even better than Chappell. We'll be better able to judge when he's retired, or close to it.
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    Hall of Fame Member aussie's Avatar
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    from all that i've heard from commentators (and people who have seen Chappell) and read the common trend is that Chappell is the best Australian batsman other than the Don.

    But Ponting is just unstoppable these days, for me if he conquers India i honestly may rate him ahead of Chappell even before his career ends.

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    International Vice-Captain Dasa's Avatar
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    Chappell by a distance at the moment.


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    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    I know you can only play against the attacks you are faced with, but boy in terms of talent and venom the attacks Chappell succeeded against far outweigh those Ponting has belted around. That's not really an indictment on Ponting, more a very big compliment to the G man.
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    Hall of Fame Member social's Avatar
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    Greg Chappell was my boyhood hero - classically correct and all that stuff.

    But Ponting is really racking up the no.s.

    Unfortunately, as Ponting is an "eye" player, I believe he'll deteriorate markedly towards the end of his career. Time will tell.

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    Ponting is facing garbage attacks. Real crap, apart from England and SA is decent.

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    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow
    Ponting is facing garbage attacks. Real crap, apart from England and SA is decent.
    Pakistan's attack isn't "garbage", neither is India's, and indeed neither is Sri Lanka's. The West Indies and New Zealand aren't much at the moment, sure, but the rest aren't bad.

    Ponting also just scored 5 centuries in 6 tests on some pretty sporting wickets against one of the two attacks you suggested is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Pakistan's attack isn't "garbage", neither is India's, and indeed neither is Sri Lanka's. The West Indies and New Zealand aren't much at the moment, sure, but the rest aren't bad.

    Ponting also just scored 5 centuries in 6 tests on some pretty sporting wickets against one of the two attacks you suggested is good.

    How isnt pakistans attack garbage? How many of their bowlers average under 30?
    Just Aktar right?

    India is decent i guess with Pathan and Kumble, but the only real top line attack around atm is England and Ponting didnt go to well there did he?

    What good bowlers do sri lanka have?
    Muri and?

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    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Pakistan's attack at full strength would be Shoaib, Asif, Shabbir and Kaneria, and all of them average under 30 except Kaneria, who is close. Afridi is also a handy bowler, when he is in the team.

    Sri Lanka have Murali and Vaas, and also Bandara who is a good young spinner. Malinga has also had a good start to his test career. All those guys except Bandara average under 30.

    India have a good spin attack with Kumble and Harbhajan, and their pace attack is developing at least... Sreesanth looks like a good bowler.

    South Africa have a pretty good attack with Nel, Ntini, Pollock and Boje, and Kallis is bowling better recently than he has in a long time.

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    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    You're clutching at straws when you start mentioning Shabbir Ahmed (who is clearly out for a long time) and Bandara and Malinga.

    I don't think Pakistan's attack is rubbish, but boy its nothing like what Chappell faced.

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    players will always be judged by the level of opposition players they've faced.
    Punter is a great batsman but unless he can average 60 by the end of his career, he isnt in the same bracket as the laras tendulkars and greg chappells of the world. Simply speaking, Ponting was very good but not stellar pre 2001, when bowling standards and pitch conditions were significantly more challenging.

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    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    You're clutching at straws when you start mentioning Shabbir Ahmed (who is clearly out for a long time) and Bandara and Malinga.

    I don't think Pakistan's attack is rubbish, but boy its nothing like what Chappell faced.
    I'm simply indicating that the attacks aren't crap. Bowling strength in the world today isn't what it was in the 90s, but people vastly overestimate the drop in class all the time, and use all sorts of insane hyperbole to back it up. Every attack in the world is garbage except for England? Give me a break. Every period in test history has poor bowlers, great bowlers, average bowlers and everything else, and every batsman makes more runs against the crappy ones than the good ones. People automatically assume that because a player played in an era of more difficult bowlers means they proved themselves more, but it's not necessarily true. It's like assuming that because Gavaskar and Ian Chappell made lots of runs against the West Indies means they had the best of the great West Indies bowlers from around the same time, which isn't entirely accurate.

    I'll give a crude example using Chappell to add some substance to the debate. Arrow used the "30 average" barrier to seperate "good" bowlers from poor ones. Seems fair enough, right? So how many times did Chappell make big runs against attacks including several bowlers averaging under 30? I'll use career averages and at least 100 wickets to make it simpler.


    Centuries against attacks including 4 "good" bowlers
    West Indies, Brisbane 1979 - Andy Roberts (25.61), Michael Holding (23.69), Colin Croft (23.30), Joel Garner (20.98)

    Centuries against attacks including 3 "good" bowlers
    England, MCG 1975 - Chris Old (28.11), Geoff Arnold (28.30), Derek Underwood (25.84)
    West Indies, Brisbane 1975 (both innings) - Andy Roberts (25.61), Michael Holding (23.69), Lance Gibbs (29.09)
    West Indies, SCG 1976 - Andy Roberts (25.61), Michael Holding (23.69), Lance Gibbs (29.09)
    England, Old Trafford 1977 - Bob Willis (25.20), Chris Old (28.11), Derek Underwood (25.84)
    England, MCG 1980 - Ian Botham (28.40), Bob Willis (25.20), Derek Underwood (25.84)

    Centuries against attacks including 2 "good" bowlers
    England, The Oval 1972 - Geoff Arnold (28.30) and John Snow (26.67)
    England, SCG 1974 - Bob Willis (25.20) and Geoff Arnold (28.30)
    Pakistan, MCG 1977 - Imran Khan (22.81), Iqbal Qasim (28.11)
    England, WACA 1982 - Ian Botham (28.40), Bob Willis (25.20)
    England, Adelaide 1982 - Ian Botham (28.40), Bob Willis (25.20)



    Now, Chappell scored 24 centuries in his career. If you rate all the attacks with 3 or more bowlers averaging under 30 as good ones, 7 of them came against good attacks, while a full 12 came against attacks that were simply crap by the standard given. By that same criteria, right now Australia, England, South Africa and Pakistan would probably have good attacks, while India and Sri Lanka would fall in the middle with 2 good bowlers.

    If you look at the names as well, the likes of Geoff Arnold and Derek Underwood (on a normal wicket) don't exactly inspire massive fear. Greg Chappell obviously played some brilliant innings against great bowlers. He scored a century against one of the best attacks of all time in 1979, one in each innings against Holding and Roberts in 75, and also faced Botham and Willis at their best in the early 80s with success, and made runs against Hadlee and Imran with their weak support too. However, the assumption that because he played in the same era as Imran, Hadlee, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Croft, Botham etc and still had a good average means that he scored heaps against all of them and faced awesome attacks every time he made runs is false. Like Ponting, his career crossed with some great bowlers, and sometimes he faced them and did well, but a lot of the time he made runs against the weaker bowlers around, because they were easier to make runs off. If you did a similar study on Ponting you'd probably get about the same result.
    Last edited by FaaipDeOiad; 18-04-2006 at 10:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by social
    Greg Chappell was my boyhood hero - classically correct and all that stuff.

    But Ponting is really racking up the no.s.

    Unfortunately, as Ponting is an "eye" player, I believe he'll deteriorate markedly towards the end of his career. Time will tell.
    Other than the century in his last test, Chappell had a shocking end to his career with more ducks than Steve Waugh on a hard WACA wicket (smooth ). I don't think the end of their careers should be taken into the equation, perhaps just their peaks?

    Having said this, I can't fully comment as i didn't see Chappell play, but at this stage I'd take Chaps from what I've read.
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    perhaps just their peaks?
    That is a very slippery slope. For peaks need to be balanced with troughs to get an accurate impression.
    Some players are utterly 'peak players' such as Botham - who did superbly for 4-5 years and then f-all after. Some players arnt peak players but are some of the greatest players of the game because of their consistency in performance - such as McGrath and Tendulkar.
    If peaks are only taken, players like McGrath and Tendulkar wouldnt even feature in the top 20 list.

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