England and One Day Cricket?

[aussie]

IMO england have 2 world class ODI performers- flintoff and Pietersen, 1 good one - tresco, and one acceptable one -collingwood. The rest are all so poor that it defies belief that they are actually selected.

, vintage TEC

 

[luckyeddie]

, vintage TEC

Cruel, but fair.

I must confess that early last summer I was caught up in the euphoria of England belting Australia a time or two, and I suggested that they were the best England ODI side I'd seen.

Well, don't believe everything a blind man says he sees.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

give him a medal, a whole 2 ODIs, one of which was a dead one.

But the last ODI was only dead in retrospect. Certainly it wasn't dead when Jones was batting.

 

[Goughy]

Richard,

I see lots of players you would not pick.

Could you find XI you could endorse? Bearing in mind there has to be a team what would yours be?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

*Afzaal will be there.*

 

[tooextracool]

But the last ODI was only dead in retrospect. Certainly it wasn't dead when Jones was batting.

i was referring to the 3rd ODI. the game was most certainly dead when Jones came into bat, really the game was dead after the first 50 overs had been bowled.

 

[tooextracool]

*Afzaal will be there.*

cant see whats wrong with that, might as well pick someone who has a half decent list A average than pick someone like Vaughan or Kabir Ali.

 

[open365]

Not only should Prior be nowhere near the side, if he opens with Trescothick Trescothick faces first.

Why should Prior be no where near the side?

He's a better FC batsman than Jones, and i don't either are anything to write home about keeping wise, so why should Prior be dis-counted? He's the younger player, and the more capable batsman.

 

[Goughy]

cant see whats wrong with that, might as well pick someone who has a half decent list A average than pick someone like Vaughan or Kabir Ali.

Talking about List A here is a home truth and a list.

The home truth- It is very rare for any cricketer (not impossible) to have a higher international average than a domestic average. So stop picking players with an List A average under 30 for a start. There is no way you can expect them to succeed with any regularity.

The List
Of potential England Players
Anderson
S. Jones
Ali
Gough
Lewis
Clarke
Blackwell
Plunkett
Solanki
Read
Shah
Troughton
Prior
Maddy
Knight
Caddick (maybe still a player)
Irani
Hoggard
Kirtley
Mahmood
Key
All have worse ODI averages than List A


Trescothick
Vaughan
Tremlett
ODI and List A near identical

Collingwood
Bell
G. Jones
Harmison
ODI a tiny bit better but not significantly

and only
Pietersen
Strauss
Wharf
with a significantly better ODI av than List A.

And Pieterson averages 46 in List A so he is not a bad player who suddenly has come good at the international level.

3 out of 31 players (9.7%) have a significantly better average in ODIs. Applying this, then if you pick 10 guys with an average of around 30 then only 1 will go on to average 35 in international cricket. Those are not numbers any successful business would tolerate so why does England cricket?

How can you expect to be successful when Vaughan has a List A av of 28, Prior 24, G. Jones 22 and none of Strauss, Solanki, Shah, Collingwood average over 32.

For all that this is my XI
Trescothick
Knight
Afzaal
Pieterson
Joyce
Flintoff
Collingwood
Read
Gough
Tremlett
Anderson

Also in the squad- Blackwell, G. Jones, Ali, Strauss and Sales (always liked him)

Criticise me for Knight if you want but I was tempted to find a place for Hick (but maybe he is just a fraction too old). At the end of the day (anyone doing a cliche watch?), youth means nothing if you cant play.

 

[marc71178]

Blackwell/Giles - I am a huge Blackwell fan, he has done well since his return with the ball, but with the bat he has been awfull.

Of course one reason for his good bowling return might just be that his games have all been in the subcontinent and usually as the sole spinner in the side.

 

[tooextracool]

For all that this is my XI
Trescothick
Knight
Afzaal
Pieterson
Joyce
Flintoff
Collingwood
Read
Gough
Tremlett
Anderson

Also in the squad- Blackwell, G. Jones, Ali, Strauss and Sales (always liked him)

Criticise me for Knight if you want but I was tempted to find a place for Hick (but maybe he is just a fraction too old). At the end of the day (anyone doing a cliche watch?), youth means nothing if you cant play.

that looks like a very stable England ODI side, although knight AFAIK has retired from international cricket so unless you can do a good job of convincing him to comeback, we arent going to side him anywhere close to the side. i also think that relying on collingwood to bowl 10 overs would also be pushing it particularly in the WI, and when you consider that Gough has been a liability more often than not in the recent past.

 

[wpdavid]

Of course one reason for his (Blackwell's) good bowling return might just be that his games have all been in the subcontinent and usually as the sole spinner in the side.

Against that, in the subcontinent, he's been facing players who are generally rather good against spin. And, as a bowler, he's held his own against them.

That being said, he has played elsewhere. He actually had a very tidy VB series with the ball after the last Ashes, and I'm happy enough that he can do a good job in that half of his game. The problem, of course, is that he has been completely out of his depth with the bat, which is a problem at number 8.

 

[marc71178]

Against that, in the subcontinent, he's been facing players who are generally rather good against spin. And, as a bowler, he's held his own against them.

My view of his holding his own is partially because they batsmen recognise spin as the threat, so realise they have 40 overs of non-spin, thus don't feel the need to attack him completely.

 

[wpdavid]

My view of his holding his own is partially because they batsmen recognise spin as the threat, so realise they have 40 overs of non-spin, thus don't feel the need to attack him completely.

I think that's a bit harsh, although I can see your logic. If you feel inclined, check out his bowling performances in the VB in 2002/03 which, I thought, were quite impressive for a newcomer playing against the best side in the world. Doesn't alter the fact that his batting will probably disqualify him once others are available, but credit where due.

 

[Goughy]

that looks like a very stable England ODI side, although knight AFAIK has retired from international cricket so unless you can do a good job of convincing him to comeback, we arent going to side him anywhere close to the side. i also think that relying on collingwood to bowl 10 overs would also be pushing it particularly in the WI, and when you consider that Gough has been a liability more often than not in the recent past.

Knight would have to dust of his boots and play. He is only 36 and still one of the top 1day players England has. Gough would only play if fit and the 5th bowler would be split between Collingwood and maybe Tresco and KP.

England are lightyears behind in getting bowling production from their specialist batsmen and its about time a couple of guys learnt to do a job that helps their team.

 

[Arjun]

There are many saying that the ODI side should be significantly different from the Test side. If that's the case, you may have some of the top batsmen and bowlers in the Test side and a one-day side with Vikram Solanki, Kabir Ali, Ian Blackwell, James Anderson, Matthew Prior and Rikki Clarket to make up the numbers. We see that team playing ODI's these days. And getting whipped. Or you could go back to the days of the Adam Hollioake era, when you had eight bowlers and nine batsmen, with only three of each really making it count. Would you choose that? The Test team, however unfit for one-dayers it looks to many, is still a lot better than a separate ODI side that may be picked, but a few adjustments should be made. It's better to have your opening bowler, one of the best Test bowlers around, bowling a little differently, rather than have him replaced by some lucky pie-thrower just because these are ODI's.

 

[tooextracool]

Against that, in the subcontinent, he's been facing players who are generally rather good against spin. And, as a bowler, he's held his own against them.

That being said, he has played elsewhere. He actually had a very tidy VB series with the ball after the last Ashes, and I'm happy enough that he can do a good job in that half of his game. The problem, of course, is that he has been completely out of his depth with the bat, which is a problem at number 8.

is it really that much of a problem at number 8? not too many teams expect their number 8s to be scoring prolifically, and if Blackwell can perform with one skill(which i doubt he will be able to sustain), he'd still be doing the job and perhaps on his day he might actually be able to display his county performances on the international stage, something that the likes of ashley giles cannot do.

 

[SpeedKing]

I feel that the only difference between Engtland and India in this current series is that their top order has constantly built a platform for the middle order guys to play, whereas our top three have constantly failed.

i feel that when someone like Tres gets back, the top order will be abit more solid, but at he moment when he i not there, i feel that we should try someone like a Bell at the top as he is a sound player [not making any promises] and could provide some extra backbone.

so the teanm for tomorrow should be

1.Proir [he has played better than Strauss]
2.Bell [will provide abit more fight] Hopefully
3.Strauss
4.Pietersen
5.Collingwood
6.Flintoff. [In that heat he shouldn't really bat too early, or alteast he shouldn't]
7.Solanki, [he has played some handy innings down here]
8.Blackwell [we have no choice really]
9.Batty [he can bat abit and the pitch will probably help him. So what is he gets smashed about, is there a better option.]
10.Plunkett/Ai - they can both hit out.
11.James Anderson

 

[tooextracool]

Knight would have to dust of his boots and play. He is only 36 and still one of the top 1day players England has.

i dont know what his motivation was behind retiring when he did, but its a question of whether he wants to play and not really whether the selectors would pick him. if he doesnt have the desire to play for England anymore theres not much that can be done about it.

Gough would only play if fit and the 5th bowler would be split between Collingwood and maybe Tresco and KP.

England are lightyears behind in getting bowling production from their specialist batsmen and its about time a couple of guys learnt to do a job that helps their team.

oh i definetly agree. KP has bowled 2 overs in his international career, which suggests that hes more or less given up on his bowling and has put in all his focus on batting. And i dont really see Tresco bowling more than a couple of overs. If you ask me, i would definetly go in with 5 frontline bowlers(4+flintoff), mostly because Anderson and Gough are both equally likely to have plenty of off days at the current stages of their career.

 

[Goughy]

oh i definetly agree. KP has bowled 2 overs in his international career, which suggests that hes more or less given up on his bowling and has put in all his focus on batting. And i dont really see Tresco bowling more than a couple of overs. If you ask me, i would definetly go in with 5 frontline bowlers(4+flintoff), mostly because Anderson and Gough are both equally likely to have plenty of off days at the current stages of their career.

5 bowlers makes the batting far too weak. Flintoff at 6 and the keeper at 7 means that a couple of quick wickets puts pressure on a long tail. Also how can the top order play with freedom when their is a weak tail that could collapse if they get out.

Many of the batsmen around the world who bowl a number of overs are not natural bowlers but guys who have been created to do a job. Tresco, KP, Bell and Vaughan should all be forced to work on their bowling.

Only need to be able to put the ball one side of the wicket and allow the skipper to set a field to the bowling, whilst the strike bowlers can work on taking wickets.

It is essential for success for your specialist batsmen to be able to help out with the 5th bowling option whilst keeping a strong batting lineup.