Australia do not have a good enough captain to lead the next generation

[Barney Rubble]

Losing to Somerset was almost as bad as losing to Bangladesh.

It's a shame that this result got lost amongst everything else that happened last summer - for Australia to fail to defend 340-odd against one of the poorest county teams in the country was a truly shocking performance, even given the fact that Somerset's standout players in that game were both genuine world class players.

It was also one of our finest hours as a county, and probably the best moment of Carl Gazzard's career.

 

[Richard]

Likely to remain so, too, I'd say.
I'm always amazed people go on about the loss to Bangladesh and never even mention this one - OK, Somerset with Graeme and Sanath were a better side, but still - once Graeme and Sanath were out there was still some work to be done.
As you say - a shocking performance - if not quite as bad as losing to Bangladesh.
Then they still went on and beat England 3-2...

 

[Barney Rubble]

Likely to remain so, too, I'd say.
I'm always amazed people go on about the loss to Bangladesh and never even mention this one - OK, Somerset with Graeme and Sanath were a better side, but still - once Graeme and Sanath were out there was still some work to be done.
As you say - a shocking performance - if not quite as bad as losing to Bangladesh.
Then they still went on and beat England 3-2...

Somerset > Australia.


That will be all.

 

[Richard]

Australia > England.
England < Somerset...?

 

[aussie]

I'm sorry people, you can be a fan of Ponting's batting, but his captaincy is crap! The results are (not) there for everyone to see. Losing to Bangladesh, Ashes loss, and now losing defending 430+.

Fair enough every captain has a bad day every now and then, but Ponting's captaincy lacks imagination, he has no idea what to do when things are on the line. His excuse of bowling Lewis at the death being "he's our death bowler," just doesn't cut it. Look at the scoreboard Ricky! Bowl someone else! It is just ridiculous. I can also remember in a ODI when Laxman needed a single off the last ball of the innings at the 'Gabba to get his century and India were 298 and Ponting brought his field in to prevent the single and Laxman just cracked it for four. Imagine if we had of lost that game by one run, who cares if Laxman gets his century, put your men out and defend the innings total!

I just can't see Australia ushering in a new era of players with Ponting as captain, this may be why the selectors continue to recall players like Martyn and Kasprowcz. Kasprowicz may have deserved his recall, but Martyn didn't.

to rate Ponting captaincy overall as crap is a tough, but if you say it lacks imagination in the tight situation i'm with you on that. Because since Ponting became international captain back in 2002 i've seen him make some superb tactical decisions on the field so obvioulsy he has some captaincy ability.

We are going to have to live with Ponting style of captaincy for as long as he plays unfortunately but i dont think its the worst to lead the next generation. Plus i dont think the recalling of Martyn & Kasper to the test side have anything to do with Ponting captaincy. Kasper was recalled has you said he deserved it, Martyn probably didn't but we can gather by that the selectors are looking to assemble the best batting-line up in around regardless of age..

 

[Barney Rubble]

Australia > England.
England < Somerset...?

Didn't it go Australia < Somerset < Derbyshire < Scotland < Ireland < Uganda or something for a while? Going by the "beating someone makes you better than them" chain, of course. I'd be interested to see who holds that title now.

In football, there's an organisation which actually keeps track of that - back in the 20s or something, before the World Cup started, there was a match which was declared the "Unofficial World Championship" between two fairly minor nations. The team that won that game were declared World Champions, and once they played again and lost, the team that beat them inherited the title. The chain carried on and was pretty much forgotten about once the World Cup arrived, but in the 80s someone decided to go back over all the results and find out who the Unofficial World Champions at the time actually were.

The result? Scotland. Since then, it's been held by teams like Benin (who beat Togo, who beat Cameroon, who beat Nigeria.....etc etc) and Costa Rica (who beat Honduras, who beat Brazil, who beat Bolivia.....etc etc). I'm not sure who the current holders are, but it's quite an interesting way of doing things nonetheless.

 

[Richard]

Chain-victories are always amusing things.
As Sam Cooke and Chrissie Whatsername (Hyam or Hyatt or whatever it is) might say...

 

[Barney Rubble]

Chain-victories are always amusing things.
As Sam Cooke and Chrissie Whatsername (Hyam or Hyatt or whatever it is) might say...

If there's a reference I'm supposed to pick up on there, it's not happening....

 

[Pedro Delgado]

Chain gang.

 

[Richard]

Sam Cooke - The Chain Gang
The Pretenders (whose lead-singer is Chrissie Hyam or Hyatt or something like that) - Back On The Chain Gang
Two songs of completely different nature but with the later one (Pretenders) quite blatantly copying the earlier one (Sam).
See...
See again...

 

[Mister Wright]

Losing to Somerset was almost as bad as losing to Bangladesh.
Ponting will inevitably suffer in comparison to the brilliance of Border and Taylor and the untested nature of Stephen Waugh. I don't think he's an especially poor captain - not particularly good, no, but most captains have bad days aplenty. Not everyone is Border, Taylor, Fleming, Hussain or Cronje. In fact, most aren't.
I'd regard Ponting's captaincy as pretty much level with the like of Smith, Atapattu, Inzy, Vaughan and Dravid. No-one can dispute he's better than Chanderpaul!

I'm sure none of those captains would let a bowler go at 11.3 an over and still bowl them in the last overs. Ponting just has no idea. As long as his team is winning his captaincy is fine. Like all the captains before him if Australia is in trouble - McGrath one end, Warne the other. Ponting won't have that luxury so needs to think of something else. Border made good players better players, we need that type of captain, and Ponting isn't that captain, and I can't see any of our 'future captains' being able to do that.

 

[The Argonaut]

How can an Aussie in the test side get captaincy experience. They don't play Pura Cup or maybe just 1 game per season. NSW are not going to give Clarke a go for one game per season. They'll keep Haddin as captain as he will be the skipper over the whole season. This will mean that White will have an advantage over others because he is getting the experience now. His only problem will be whether he is good enough to get picked in the first place. His numbers just aren;t good enough. Maybe in a few years.

Langer is too old to make it. Warne has missed his chance. Lehmann would have been a great captain but wasn't at the right place at the right time.

Clarke is the logical choice as a long term candidate but where does he get the experience. If he's playing for NSW the selectors will want him to be finding form or getting his technique right, not burdened with the responsibility of captaining the side.

 

[tooextracool]

I'd regard Ponting's captaincy as pretty much level with the like of Smith, Atapattu, Inzy, Vaughan and Dravid. No-one can dispute he's better than Chanderpaul!

i dunno what you've been watching but inzy is about as poor a captain as you'll probably ever see. the fact that bob woolmer manages to carry pakistan to higher levels, bears testiment to how good a coach he is.
Dravid and Vaughan IMO are better captains(Dravid only marginally) than ponting and the rest of that bunch.

 

[marc71178]

All Vaughan has done well is make a big show out of the mateyness of his team's culture - insisting that everyone must always be on the balcony, constant huddles, always posing looking happy for the cameras, etc.

I think he's done a tad more than that.

 

[Francis]

Ponting will inevitably suffer in comparison to the brilliance of Border and Taylor and the untested nature of Stephen Waugh.

I don't understand what you mean by 'untested'? My initial impression was that you meant he wasn't really tested as a captain. If that's the case, then your wrong. Just because Australia had an awesome winning streak with a great captain doesn't mean he wasn't tested. Waugh saved Australia in some incredibly tough situations, as he typically does. How bout when he made over 150 in his last Ashes test in English soil with a bad hamstring and could barely run. That courage rubbed off on players. Waugh's as tough as they come in cricket. Up there with Border and Gavaskar.

Not everyone is Border, Taylor, Fleming, Hussain or Cronje.

Fleming?

I'd regard Ponting's captaincy as pretty much level with the like of Smith, Atapattu, Inzy, Vaughan and Dravid. No-one can dispute he's better than Chanderpaul!

Vaughn was so far ahead of Ponting in the Ashes as captain it aint funny. Granted that wasn't hard with some of Ponting's decisions. Ponting had never been in such a desperate situation, and he didn't respond well. Inzamam is a brilliant captain as well, especially in ODI's. Before the power-plays came into being, his field placings could really dry-up runs in the 30-40 over mark if his bowlers bowled well. Atapattu is mediocre and for all his huff and puff, so is Smith.


And to answer to the initial part of this thread. Yes Ponting is a terrible captain and is at his worst when things are tight. He did captain one very good ODI in South Africa which impressed me, but failed to duplicate it. I think if you go back to Ian Chapell and since him all Aussie captains have to be iron hard in hard situations. His brother kept it going with the same attitude. Border reinvigourated it and reminded his team-mates of his old school of teching. Taylor just kept it going. Steve Waugh was the best graduate of the Border era. Ponting? He doesn't have that Aussie grit. As a batsman he does, as a captain he's a lost puppy.

Warne should have been captain when Waugh retired.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Generally, I think that Ponting has been a pretty good one day captain. He made a blemish recently, but I think that by and by he has a good grasp of the shorter game.

As for the longer game...

 

[Richard]

I'm sure none of those captains would let a bowler go at 11.3 an over and still bowl them in the last overs. Ponting just has no idea. As long as his team is winning his captaincy is fine. Like all the captains before him if Australia is in trouble - McGrath one end, Warne the other. Ponting won't have that luxury so needs to think of something else. Border made good players better players, we need that type of captain, and Ponting isn't that captain, and I can't see any of our 'future captains' being able to do that.

Would Symonds seriously have been any better? Or Clark?
I reckon it's pretty likely whoever got bowled then would've got absolutely murdered.

 

[Richard]

i dunno what you've been watching but inzy is about as poor a captain as you'll probably ever see. the fact that bob woolmer manages to carry pakistan to higher levels, bears testiment to how good a coach he is.
Dravid and Vaughan IMO are better captains(Dravid only marginally) than ponting and the rest of that bunch.

Inzy isn't a great captain, obviously. Would he still be in the job if Javed or someone was coaching Pakistan at present? Anyone's guess.
Seriously, though - Dravid has barely captained for long anyhow so we can't judge him fully, but Vaughan must be the most overrated captain ever. Except maybe Mike Gatting. English people are too quick to praise Ashes-winning captains - especially in 1986\87 when The Ashes was a battle for the wooden-spoon of Test-cricket.
We've heard so much about Vaughan's supposed brilliance as captain as to beggar belief. Vaughan is a sound captain but no more. He, like so many others, just has a very fine bowling-attack. Like Brearley in 1977-1979, he's played some mediocre teams (2004) and some teams that were nowhere near as good as teams from the same country of the recent past (2004\05 and 2005). Brearley, though, was a trained psycho-analyst and had some other things than results to back his capabilities. Vaughan simply has the sense to realise when to put a few slips in and when to put a deep-extra-cover in. His lack of use of a third-man regularly beggars belief. The main thing Vaughan has done, as I've said so many times, is make a big show of good team-spirit.

 

[Richard]

I think he's done a tad more than that.

What, then, prey?

 

[Richard]

I don't understand what you mean by 'untested'? My initial impression was that you meant he wasn't really tested as a captain. If that's the case, then your wrong. Just because Australia had an awesome winning streak with a great captain doesn't mean he wasn't tested. Waugh saved Australia in some incredibly tough situations, as he typically does. How bout when he made over 150 in his last Ashes test in English soil with a bad hamstring and could barely run. That courage rubbed off on players. Waugh's as tough as they come in cricket. Up there with Border and Gavaskar.

Waugh may be as tough as they come with the bat, but he had little test as captain because his attack was so strong and his batting-line-up so destructive. He rarely had to control tight situations (two occasions he failed to were in the subcontinent in 1999\2000 and 2000\01). How does that 150-odd* say anything about his captaincy.

Fleming?
Yes, in case you've missed it, Fleming is a very good captain.

Vaughn was so far ahead of Ponting in the Ashes as captain it aint funny. Granted that wasn't hard with some of Ponting's decisions. Ponting had never been in such a desperate situation, and he didn't respond well. Inzamam is a brilliant captain as well, especially in ODI's. Before the power-plays came into being, his field placings could really dry-up runs in the 30-40 over mark if his bowlers bowled well. Atapattu is mediocre and for all his huff and puff, so is Smith.

Vaughan did little better than Ponting in The Ashes. It's just propaganda.
Atapattu and Smith certainly aren't mediocre captains, both are perfectly solid.

And to answer to the initial part of this thread. Yes Ponting is a terrible captain and is at his worst when things are tight. He did captain one very good ODI in South Africa which impressed me, but failed to duplicate it. I think if you go back to Ian Chapell and since him all Aussie captains have to be iron hard in hard situations. His brother kept it going with the same attitude. Border reinvigourated it and reminded his team-mates of his old school of teching. Taylor just kept it going. Steve Waugh was the best graduate of the Border era. Ponting? He doesn't have that Aussie grit. As a batsman he does, as a captain he's a lost puppy.

Having grit is all well and good - you can't do anything without good players and this is easily the poorest Australian Test team since 1989 and the poorest ODI team since 1986\87.

Warne should have been captain when Waugh retired.

Slight problem with that - can't play a banned cricketer as captain.

PS - can't you just use the quote system like everyone else, rather than just using bold-type?