Is there an ideal team balance?

[Shoaib]

The ideal team balance, thats easy 11 spin bowling options, you can't go wrong their :

1. V Mankad
2. F Worrell (vc)
3. MA Noble
4. F Wolley
5. G Sobers
6. A Faulkner
7. T Taibu (wk)
8. R Benuad (c)
9. W Rhodes
10. S Warne
11. M Muralitharan

All rubbish except those coloured in blue

 

[marc71178]

Oh yes, Warne is of course rubbish.

 

[Shoaib]

Oh yes, Warne is of course rubbish.

Sorry about that.It has been fixed now.

 

[archie mac]

All rubbish except those coloured in blue

And the rest are champions as well

 

[chaminda_00]

Who opens the bowling? Sobers and Taibu?

Sobers and Noble

 

[greg]

All rubbish except those coloured in blue

Watch Wilfred Rhodes play, did you?

 

[Barney Rubble]

Watch Wilfred Rhodes play, did you?

Or Frank Worrell?

 

[SJS]

The ideal team balance, thats easy 11 spin bowling options, you can't go wrong their :

1. V Mankad
2. F Worrell (vc)
3. MA Noble
4. F Wolley
5. G Sobers
6. A Faulkner
7. T Taibu (wk)
8. R Benuad (c)
9. W Rhodes
10. S Warne
11. M Muralitharan

Thats very good. Here's another

#...PLAYER......TEST RUNS(AVG) BAT.....TEST WKTS(AVG) BALL.....BALL TYPE

1...Simpson................4869 (46.8)......................... 71 (42.3).....................RALS
2...Jayasuriya.............6563 (42.1) ........................ 92 (32.8) ....................LALS
3...Hammond..............7249 (58.5).........................83 (37.8)......................RAMP
4...Sobers..................,8032 (57.8)........................235 (34.0).................... LAMP/LS/ CH
5...Kallis.....................7337 (56.9)........................183 (31.6).....................RAFM
6...Miller.....................2958 (36.9)........................170 (22.9).....................RAF
7...Imran.....................3807 (37.8)........................362 (22.8).....................RAF
8...
9...Warne....................2767 (16.9).......................623 (25.2).....................RALS
10..Muralitharan..........1023 (13.1).......................563 (22.1).....................RAOS
11..Barnes.................... 242 (8.1) .......................189 (16.4).....................RAMP

This is a very good side in many respects

1. It has, probably the three greatest bowlers of all time who epitomise the great variety of the art of bowling. A mighty leg spinner with all variations one can think of or cant (a weak googly unfortunately), an off spinner with more variations than ever seen in the game from another off spinner, a medium pacer who bowled mystery deliveries that swung in like boomerangs and moved away off the wicket like the crack of doom.

2. Between them these three have the most amazing figures one can think of. If they werent facts no one would believe them. Here they are

IN MERELY 250 COMBINED APPEARANCES THEY HAVE

- 1357 wickets at 5.5 per test !
- 103 five-wkt-an inng and 31 10-a-match hauls !
- A bowling average of 22.7 at a strike rate of 55.0 and an economy rate (per 100 balls) of 41.3 !
and we are still counting for two of them

But thats not all. This side has two outstanding fast bowlers who moved the ball in the air and off the wicket, could bowl frighteningly fast and were accurate enough to have economy rates comparable with any bowler without loking bad.

Add to that, they were amongst the most dashing and most attractive (for women) cricketers in the history of the game.

MILLER and IMRAN : Combined Stats

- Wkts : 532
- Avg : 22.9
- 5 in an innings : 30
- 10 in an innings : 7
- Str Rate : 54.7
- Eco Rate : 41.8

So here we have five bowlers with all skills between them except left arm spin and a small matter of nearly 2000 test wickets at under 23 runs each !!

But we arent done with the bowling yet. Besides these five all time bowling greats we have a second line of two world class bowlers and another of three with batsmen who bowled with a fair degree of success.

In the first we have Sobers and Kallis. With Sobers bringing in any missing variation one could have thought of and the two of them between them having played exactly 93 tests each for :

- Wkts 415
- Avg ..33.2
- 5 in innings : 10
- Str Rt ...82.3
- Eco Rt..40.4

Not bad for the second string.

Then we have the next three bowlers (in the team for their batting) who have all at least fifty test wickets and five wickets in an innings more than once (to show its not a fluke) PLUS they had to be world class batsmen in their specialist positions (which are the top three in the batting order)

And here are the three giants we selected.
Jayasuriya, Bob Simpson, Wally Hammond.
And here are their combined bowling figures

Wkts : 247
Avg : 37.2
Strk Rate : 90.4
Eco Rate : 41.2

Not bad for the 8th, 9th and 10th bowleing options for the skipper !!!

So what do we have so far in combined stats (divide the sums by 10 and you can see how mind boggling these are)

Tests : 826
Wkts : 2568
(divide the sums by 10 and you can see how mind boggling these are)

Avg : 25.8 per wkt !
Str Rate : 62.8
Eco Rate : 41.1(2.47 per over)
(It will actually be much better since the top 5 bowlers will normally bowl more overs than the bottom five)

Very impressive stats. But the most interesting is that if you add up their wickets per test played you come to a mind boggling 32.5 wkts. Add a few run outs and they may almost allow their opponents four innings per match !!!

And we havent yet added the bowling figures of the keeper !! (which I am yet to decided)

to be continued​

 

[honestbharani]

That team looks so awesome that they could defend even 150, which they can surely get, with the likes of Simpson, Hammond, Kallis, Sobers, Imran and Miller in there. The only one I am slightly sceptical about is Jayasuriya, but he is still good, although not great.

 

[SJS]

That team looks so awesome that they could defend even 150, which they can surely get, with the likes of Simpson, Hammond, Kallis, Sobers, Imran and Miller in there. The only one I am slightly sceptical about is Jayasuriya, but he is still good, although not great.

You are right.

The allrounders who have been openers are few. The others who could have taken that spot are Rhodes and Mankad. Mankad is the better batsman of the two but Jayasuriya's record is better overall. But I agree with you Mankad appears to 'belong' amongst these greats while Jayasuriya inspite of his tremendous stats is still a one day big hitting batsman to most of us.

Then there are alternatives like Worrell who have opened a few times. Worrell opened in three or four tests I think but besides one innings of 191 not out didnt do much and wasnt really known as an opener.

Mudassar Nazar of Pakistan is another possibility with an average of 38.1 and more than a 100 inings (and 9 centuries) as an opener besides his 66 wickets at 38 something as a right arm in swing bowler of medium pace.

Then there is Charles Kelleway of Australia (first quarter of last century) a rght arm fast medium bowler (52 test wickets at 32 something in 26 tests) and a batting avg of 37 plus with 18 of his 42 innings (and 2 of his 3 centuries) as opener. Again not a name that one would put in a company of all time greats

Trevor Goddard of South Africa is a good option. He was a genuine opener, averaged 34.5 with the bat but scored only one century in his 2516 test runs besides 18 fifties. His left arm medium pace brought him 123 wickets at 26.2 and five 5-fors.

There are others but the batting figures keep geting worse

Since the idea was not to take a team of all rounders (which I did in another selection) but to have a world class team in every respect where every one could bowl, I was looking at genuine opener as a prime qualification.

If I had to replace Jayasuriya, my personal choice would be Mankad who, though he averages only 31 something, scored five test centuries including a double as an opener and holds the first wicket all time record with Roy. Or I would take Trevor Goddard.

 

[honestbharani]

yeah, Mankad could be a good choice. But honestly, given the rest of the side, I don't think having either of them will significantly change the side's strength.

 

[Jamee999]

What about Tanny Grig?

 

[SJS]

Coming to wicket keepers who have also bowled in test matches.

- There have been 29 instances of a wicket keeper bowling in a match involving 21 cricketers.

- 8 of them got wickets in tests

- Of these the best bowling was by Lyttleton who came on to bowl after Australia had amassed almost 500 runs for the first 5 wickets. He then proceded to run through the side with 4 wickets for 19 runs in 12 overs of which 5 were maidens. This is also the only instance of a wicket keeper heading the bowling figures for the side !

- Surprisingly, he never bowled again for England !!

- All others got only one wicket in a spell of bowling or none.

- My favourite , however is William Storer......and here are the reasons why.

1. He played 6 tests for England, all as a wicket keeper but bowled in four out of the six !!
Only Kirmani comes close having bowled 3 times for India.

2. Storer is also the only wicket keeper to have claimed test wickets in more than one test match. He took 1 for 55 in 16 overs on new years day at Melbourne 1898 and then 28 days later took 1 for 24 on the same ground in 4 overs.

3. He was not the 10th or 11th bowler to bowl like Lyttleton or Taibu. Twice he came on 5th change, once 4th change and once even 2nd change. His captain sure developed more confidence in him than regular bowlers like Mason and the great all rounder Hirst !!

Another amazing wicket keeper bowler was Indian all rounder GS Ramchand. Against Australia at Bombay in Jan 1960 he was captain, wicket keeper and new ball bowler !!!

He batted and scored a duck. Then when Australia came in to bat he bowled 35 overs with the new ball without a wicket and then kept wickets in the rest of the match. I am not sure why he did so because Buddhi Kunderan, who was a wicket keeper and a very good bat, was also playing in the side.

Kunderan who later opened the batting for India went in at number 8 in the first innings of this game and one down in the secon !!

It is interesting to note that Kunderan also opened the bowling for India in a test match 7 years later but at that time he played as a batsman and opened the batting with another wicket keeper , Farroukh Engineer !!!

Kunderan opened the batting 21 times for India averaging in the low 40's with 2 centuries and a highest score of 192 against England. He scored 525 runs in that series averaging 52.5. Not bad considering Sachin hasnt topped 500 in a series , or has he ??

Difficult choise as to who should be the wicket keeper bowler in this team ? I would chose between Storer and Lyttleton if I thought I needed an 11 bowling options. But with the riches at hand, that would be being finnincky so I might be happy with a pure keeper to measure upto the great bowlers in the side. My vote would go to Ames. not kust because he was a great batsman but because of his great record keeping to leg spinners. There are many Australian keepers who could claim similar records I suppose

 

[chaminda_00]

Thats very good. Here's another

#...PLAYER......TEST RUNS(AVG) BAT.....TEST WKTS(AVG) BALL.....BALL TYPE

1...Simpson................4869 (46.8)......................... 71 (42.3).....................RALS
2...Jayasuriya.............6563 (42.1) ........................ 92 (32.8) ....................LALS
3...Hammond..............7249 (58.5).........................83 (37.8)......................RAMP
4...Sobers..................,8032 (57.8)........................235 (34.0).................... LAMP/LS/ CH
5...Kallis.....................7337 (56.9)........................183 (31.6).....................RAFM
6...Miller.....................2958 (36.9)........................170 (22.9).....................RAF
7...Imran.....................3807 (37.8)........................362 (22.8).....................RAF
8...
9...Warne....................2767 (16.9).......................623 (25.2).....................RALS
10..Muralitharan..........1023 (13.1).......................563 (22.1).....................RAOS
11..Barnes.................... 242 (8.1) .......................189 (16.4).....................RAMP

Pretty good side, but there is no need for fast bowlers, they are only good for one thing; 'taking the shine of the new ball for the spinners' .

How about this team:

1. F Worrell (vc)
2. B Simpson
3. V Richards
4. S Tendulkar
5. A Border
6. G Sobers
7. A Flaukner
8. T Taibu (wk)
9. R Benaud (c)
10. S Warne
11. M Muralithran

Its got the basics of a balanced side 11 spin bowling options , 7 font line batsmen and 4 main bowlers.

 

[honestbharani]

Coming to wicket keepers who have also bowled in test matches.

- There have been 29 instances of a wicket keeper bowling in a match involving 21 cricketers.

- 8 of them got wickets in tests

- Of these the best bowling was by Lyttleton who came on to bowl after Australia had amassed almost 500 runs for the first 5 wickets. He then proceded to run through the side with 4 wickets for 19 runs in 12 overs of which 5 were maidens. This is also the only instance of a wicket keeper heading the bowling figures for the side !

- Surprisingly, he never bowled again for England !!

- All others got only one wicket in a spell of bowling or none.

- My favourite , however is William Storer......and here are the reasons why.

1. He played 6 tests for England, all as a wicket keeper but bowled in four out of the six !!
Only Kirmani comes close having bowled 3 times for India.

2. Storer is also the only wicket keeper to have claimed test wickets in more than one test match. He took 1 for 55 in 16 overs on new years day at Melbourne 1898 and then 28 days later took 1 for 24 on the same ground in 4 overs.

3. He was not the 10th or 11th bowler to bowl like Lyttleton or Taibu. Twice he came on 5th change, once 4th change and once even 2nd change. His captain sure developed more confidence in him than regular bowlers like Mason and the great all rounder Hirst !!

Another amazing wicket keeper bowler was Indian all rounder GS Ramchand. Against Australia at Bombay in Jan 1960 he was captain, wicket keeper and new ball bowler !!!

He batted and scored a duck. Then when Australia came in to bat he bowled 35 overs with the new ball without a wicket and then kept wickets in the rest of the match. I am not sure why he did so because Buddhi Kunderan, who was a wicket keeper and a very good bat, was also playing in the side.

Kunderan who later opened the batting for India went in at number 8 in the first innings of this game and one down in the secon !!

It is interesting to note that Kunderan also opened the bowling for India in a test match 7 years later but at that time he played as a batsman and opened the batting with another wicket keeper , Farroukh Engineer !!!

Kunderan opened the batting 21 times for India averaging in the low 40's with 2 centuries and a highest score of 192 against England. He scored 525 runs in that series averaging 52.5. Not bad considering Sachin hasnt topped 500 in a series , or has he ??

Difficult choise as to who should be the wicket keeper bowler in this team ? I would chose between Storer and Lyttleton if I thought I needed an 11 bowling options. But with the riches at hand, that would be being finnincky so I might be happy with a pure keeper to measure upto the great bowlers in the side. My vote would go to Ames. not kust because he was a great batsman but because of his great record keeping to leg spinners. There are many Australian keepers who could claim similar records I suppose

Mark Boucher bowled really well at Antigua. He deserves atleast a mention, as does Ajay Ratra. Apparently, Antigua is the one ground where wicket keepers take wickets more often than not.


Anyway, coming back to your original side, I think you can even have Manoj Prabhakar opening the batting, the side will still beat most sides.

 

[chaminda_00]

3. He was not the 10th or 11th bowler to bowl like Lyttleton or Taibu. Twice he came on 5th change, once 4th change and once even 2nd change. His captain sure developed more confidence in him than regular bowlers like Mason and the great all rounder Hirst !!

One small point i think Taibu would be good enough to play as a front line spinner in the Zimbabwe team, that says more about the current Zimbabwe bowlers then him. But if the selectors took a gamble and gave Coventry or Taylor the gloves then he would probably bowl in the top 5 and bowl quite regularly.

 

[marc71178]

Anyway, coming back to your original side, I think you can even have Manoj Prabhakar opening the batting, the side will still beat most sides.

Depends if he's been talking to the bookies

 

[Richard]

England have proven that five bowlers can be a massive advantage - however, for this to work the team really has to have a world-class all-rounder a la Flintoff. England have shown in the past that if the all-rounder isn't good enough (e.g. Craig White, Dominic Cork, Gavin Hamilton, Flintoff c.1998) then it can put increased pressure on the other bowlers and the batsmen.

England have also proved for a short time that a four-man attack including two bowling-all-rounders (White and Cork) can be devestating, if you prepare the right conditions.

 

[SJS]

Pretty good side, but there is no need for fast bowlers, they are only good for one thing; 'taking the shine of the new ball for the spinners' .

How about this team:

1. F Worrell (vc)
2. B Simpson
3. V Richards
4. S Tendulkar
5. A Border
6. G Sobers
7. A Flaukner
8. T Taibu (wk)
9. R Benaud (c)
10. S Warne
11. M Muralithran

Its got the basics of a balanced side 11 spin bowling options , 7 font line batsmen and 4 main bowlers.

Very good.

Just one question. Why do you think Benaud was a better captain than Worrell? I am not saying I have a strong disagreement, just curious.

 

[SJS]

Mark Boucher bowled really well at Antigua. He deserves atleast a mention, as does Ajay Ratra. Apparently, Antigua is the one ground where wicket keepers take wickets more often than not.


Anyway, coming back to your original side, I think you can even have Manoj Prabhakar opening the batting, the side will still beat most sides.

Have Boucher and ratra bowled in tests ?

As for Manoj Prabhakar, yes he can open but then i would go with Vinoo Mankad without hesitation.

By the way, we all tend to forget WG Grace when thinking of all rounders who opened the batting, what a disgraceful slip !!

Shame on you SJS