How did this bloke play for aus a??

[Richard]

Hogg overall - Kumble from 1990 to 1999.
Kumble since 1999\2000 has been rubbish, and so has Hogg throughout his career.
About Hogg's best time was this bit here, and while, in terms of wicket-taking, he's not been terrible since 2003\04, that owes quite a bit to those 2 five-fors and really he's not done a tremendous amount other than them, and it's very, very poor with them knocked-out.
Before that 3-55 against us, meanwhile, his record was shockingly poor, even though he had only played a handful of games.

 

[Scallywag]

Please explain how Hogg is a better ODI-spinner than 1990-1999 Kumble?
Yes, him and 1999\2000-2004\05 Kumble are about as rubbish as each other, but that's not exactly much of an achievement.

Well Kumble seems a bit better than Giles who is not in the same class as Hogg, Kumble and Vettori. Kumble and Hogg have the same average bowling (both 30) but Hogg has a very impressive batting side to his game averaging 23+ at a very healthy s/r of 80.

So a spinner who averages 30 with the ball and 23 with the bat in ODI's is very impressive.
Kumble doesnt have the batting power to give him the same edge as Hogg. Did I mention Hogg is also an outstanding fielder who delivers a few run outs as well.

 

[Richard]

Hogg's fielding and batting do not influence how good a bowler he is.
As for Kumble - as I've explained, please don't mislead yourself by a) taking his career as a whole (it clearly splits into 1990-1999 and 1999-2005) and b) using only average, when economy-rate is far more important (and even in Kumble's poor period he still outdoes Hogg if you remove Hogg's best period).
As for Giles vs Hogg... well, they're equally poor, simple as.
And Vettori, while I don't really rate him in ODIs, he's been good recently, and that's not up for dispute.

 

[Scallywag]

Hogg's fielding and batting do not influence how good a bowler he is.
As for Kumble - as I've explained, please don't mislead yourself by a) taking his career as a whole (it clearly splits into 1990-1999 and 1999-2005) and b) using only average, when economy-rate is far more important (and even in Kumble's poor period he still outdoes Hogg if you remove Hogg's best period).
As for Giles vs Hogg... well, they're equally poor, simple as.
And Vettori, while I don't really rate him in ODIs, he's been good recently, and that's not up for dispute.

If you put in Hoggs best period and remove Kumble's worst bit and shave off the bits you dont like and take out the games that did not get shown live and only look at half of the games umpired by Bucknor and double the games affected by rain its quite clear Hogg is better.

 

[King_Ponting]

hmm dont agree at all with selective stat taking done to evaluate a player. A player must be evaluated on his ups and downs noth just one or the other.

 

[King_Ponting]

if we start doing that then, Ian bell is greater than bradman..........

 

[Richard]

If you put in Hoggs best period and remove Kumble's worst bit and shave off the bits you dont like and take out the games that did not get shown live and only look at half of the games umpired by Bucknor and double the games affected by rain its quite clear Hogg is better.

Exactly.
If you use utterly obscure measures you can find Hogg better.
If you take the realistic approach that Kumble was a very, very good ODI bowler for 9-and-a-half years and 174 matches, and Hogg was good for just a handful, you can see that Kumble was far the better performer, even if of late he has been poor.

 

[Richard]

hmm dont agree at all with selective stat taking done to evaluate a player. A player must be evaluated on his ups and downs noth just one or the other.

Nope, not at all. Overall averages hide many, many patterns, and it's far better not to bother with them.
Kumble's case, like almost every other, demonstrates this well:
1989\90-1999: 174 matches, economy-rate 4.10-an-over, average 27.79
1999\2000-2004\05: 87 matches, economy-rate 4.69-an-over, average 37.97
With Hogg, whose career is shorter, there are more ups and downs, and there are various anomalies etc.
When Hogg's been good he's been very good, but equally if you take out 1 or 2 innings he's been poor.

 

[aussie]

Hogg is a genuine ODI spinner and has out performed spinners like Giles, Vettori and Kumble in ODI cricket.


His record in ODI's confirms his outstanding abilities.

i agree that he has out performed Gilo, i would say he & Vettori are even but not Kumble no no no

 

[Richard]

Depends.
Being better than Kumble from 1999\2000-2004\05 isn't amazing.
Whether or not Hogg, Giles and Vettori are is another question.

 

[brockley]

Wonder why brad oldroyd never moved interstate,does he still play grade.
Haurie will struggle to play pura next season,5 seasons with very little results,wonder who will fill the breach next season,ryan leroux?.

 

[chaminda_00]

Maybe no one wanted brad oldroyd.

I don't think that any QLD spinner will get many games this season, they will probably go for a 3 man pace attack plus the all rounders or a four man pace attack

 

[age_master]

Hogg is by no means rubbish

damn straight!

 

[marc71178]

No, he has a quite wonderful record in domestic cricket doesn't he.

I think the crunch came last year when Mark Wagh was asked to bowl ahead of him.

 

[chaminda_00]

No, he has a quite wonderful record in domestic cricket doesn't he.

I think the crunch came last year when Mark Wagh was asked to bowl ahead of him.

Well most of his domestic career on the worst track to bowl spin bowling in the world at the WACA, so im not surprised his domestic record isn't that good. They do some stupid things in county cricket and that just another one, Wagh bowling ahead of Hogg.

 

[Craig]

And that both are regarded fairly highly says something about how easy it is for spinners to be overrated in Australia.
If any of them turn-out to be anything (and Dan Cullen too) I'll eat my computer.

You said this before about eating your computer.

Fancy writing a book on how to stir-fry by hard drive and my modem? What sauces go best with it?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

And that both are regarded fairly highly says something about how easy it is for spinners to be overrated in Australia.
If any of them turn-out to be anything (and Dan Cullen too) I'll eat my computer.

Just out of curiosity... is it at all possible for you to say anything remotely positive about anyone before they've scored 20 test hundreds or taken 300 wickets? I mean, aside from your bizarre pet players like White and Ramprakash?

Just for Cullen to stand out to such a huge degree as a finger spinner on Australian wickets at his age in his first season is remarkable, and he deserves all the credit he is getting for it. He is not "overrated" simply because people are suggesting he is a talent and a good prospect for the future.

 

[King_Ponting]

Wonder why brad oldroyd never moved interstate,does he still play grade.
.

Yes he does he plays for the kelmscott senior cricket astroturf A grade team. Doesnt even play turf anymore. Although Kelmscott does have an alrite team with another ex WA player in their side Mark Aktinson.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Personally, I think its a bit harsh when comparing how good someone is to someone else, that you take out their good performances...

 

[marc71178]

Well most of his domestic career on the worst track to bowl spin bowling in the world at the WACA, so im not surprised his domestic record isn't that good. They do some stupid things in county cricket and that just another one, Wagh bowling ahead of Hogg.

Except Hogg's record last season justified it completely, it was absolutely shocking.