All-Time XI

[FaaipDeOiad]

I can understand people giving the nod to Marshall or Hadlee/Akram as they were also quite good batsman, but anyone else even the great Dennis Lillee I don't think would match up to him.

What about Barnes, McGrath, Davidson, Holding etc? There's plenty of other reasonable choices.

 

[SJS]

It is such a hard thing to do that Zinzan's idea of 2 sides is quite a good one IMO.

Still too hard though!

Yes I agree.

The only way to make two sides and get them balanced is to first make a side (best that you think) without Bradman and then chose the second with the Don in it.

Might give some balance

 

[SJS]

Let me try this one

The best minus Don.........The Rest Plus Don

1. Jack Hobbs...................1. Len Hutton
2. Sunil Gavaskar..............2. Herbert sutcliffe
3. George Headley.............3. Don Bradman
4. Walter Hammond...........4. Graeme Pollock
5. Viv Richards.................5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Garfield Sobers.............6. Keith Miller
7. Richard Hadlee..............7. Imran Khan
8. Ray Lindwall.................8. Dennis Lillee
9. Bob Taylor...................9. Ian Healy
10. Muralitharan...............10 Hedly Verity
11. Syd Barnes.................11 Bill Orielly

Of course one could make further changes and some would argue that the first teams pace attack is weaker in which case Lindwall couls switch places with Lillee.

I am sorry for not finding a place for Warne but I consider Orielly a better bowler . Of course one hasnt seen him but one respects the judgement of people like the Don and countless others who saw bot. If I had a third side i would have chosen Grimmett.

It is a tough choice for the second spinner in the Rest team. I could have also chosen Rhodes and the team would have been stronger in batting also.

Similarly Healy could be replaced by a host of great keepers Evans, Oldfied, tallon, grout, Ames, Knott. I am sorry but I dont consider Gilchrist a god enough keeper in such company on his glove work alone. those who disagree with me will also live longer so read what posterity says about this when even Gilchrist is a name in the past.

I had no doubt about Hutton as the first opener, the second could have been trumper (I actually put it and removed it) or Richards and it would have been an equally well deserved choice. As Marc says, its a bloody tough job.

By the way, we never find a spot for the good old doctor and i strongly suspect it is because his figures appear so modest by todays standards. It is one of the biggest illusions of cricket statistics and i will probably write about it one day. Just try and put any of your favourite cricketers in a forty year first class cricket span and let me know how you think they will perform, the types of horrendous wickets he played on, not withstanding. Just take away a fairly long, say twenty year (who plays that much today) period from his career and then look at his figures. Alternatively, get Sachin or Lara to play till their mid fifties and watch where their averages plummett. Its just not fair.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

I'll make a pre-WWI XI, just for arguments sake.

1. WG Grace
2. Clem Hill
3. Victor Trumper
4. Monty Noble
5. Warwick "The Big Ship" Armstrong
6. Gilbert Jessop
7. Jack Blackham
8. Charles "The Terror" Turner
9. Colin Blythe
10. Fred "The Demon" Spofforth
11. Sydney "No nickname but still bloody good" Barnes

 

[SJS]

I'll make a pre-WWI XI, just for arguments sake.

1. WG Grace
2. Clem Hill
3. Victor Trumper
4. Monty Noble
5. Warwick "The Big Ship" Armstrong
6. Gilbert Jessop
7. Jack Blackham
8. Charles "The Terror" Turner
9. Colin Blythe
10. Fred "The Demon" Spofforth
11. Sydney "No nickname but still bloody good" Barnes

Gilbert "the Croucher" Jessop

 

[Zinzan]

Without the deadly pin point accuracy of a Larwood it would work on every one except Bradman

possibly

 

[a massive zebra]

I'll make a pre-WWI XI, just for arguments sake.

1. WG Grace
2. Clem Hill
3. Victor Trumper
4. Monty Noble
5. Warwick "The Big Ship" Armstrong
6. Gilbert Jessop
7. Jack Blackham
8. Charles "The Terror" Turner
9. Colin Blythe
10. Fred "The Demon" Spofforth
11. Sydney "No nickname but still bloody good" Barnes

W.G.Grace
V.T.Trumper
C.Hill(vc)
K.S.Ranjitsinghi
F.S.Jackson(c)
W.Rhodes
A.F.A.Lilley(wk)
G.A.Lohmann
S.F.Barnes
T.Richardson
F.R.Spofforth

12th Man: C.T.B.Turner

 

[SJS]

I am surprised you dont include Hobbs in the pre WW1 teams. He was 32 when the WW1 broke and had scored nearly 2500 runs at 57 per innings and played about half his career test matches.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Donald Bradman
Walter Hammond
Greg Chappell
Gary Sobers
Adam Gilchrist +
Richard Hadlee
Shane Warne
Sydney Barnes
Glenn McGrath

To follow up my first list I'll make a second team as well.

Len Hutton
Herbert Sutcliffe
Vivian Richards
George Headley
Brian Lara
Steve Waugh
Keith Miller
Imran Khan
Alan Knott
Alan Davidson
Muttiah Muralitharan


This one probably lacks a bit of bowling depth compared to the first one, but I'd back Imran, Davidson, Miller and Murali to take 20 wickets, and it bats down to number 10. Since Imran Khan is in this one and no longer a 12th man, the 12th men can be Sachin Tendulkar and Michael Holding.

 

[The Baconator]

I'll do 2 aswell

Team 1

Hobbs
Greenidge
Bradman
Tendulkar
Lara
Sobers
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Marshall
Laker
Lillee

vs

Team 2

Gavaskar
Trumper
Headley
Hammond
Richards
G Pollock
Imran Khan
Miller
Knott
Warne
Barnes

 

[SJS]

I prefer dividing eras by the great masters qho have dominated the game and almost followed the last one just as he was leaving.

1. Grace
2. Hobbs
3. Bradman.
4. Sobers
5. Richards
6. Tendulkar

I prefer one team for each of these eras. Basically it means.
1. 19th century
2. 1st qtr 20th century
3. 2nd qtr 20th
4. 50's and 60's
5. 70's and 80's
6. 90's till date

try these and it is more fun, less argumentative, more easy to place contemporaries in context etc.
Try it

 

[Zinzan]

I prefer dividing eras by the great masters qho have dominated the game and almost followed the last one just as he was leaving.

1. Grace
2. Hobbs
3. Bradman.
4. Sobers
5. Richards
6. Tendulkar

I prefer one team for each of these eras. Basically it means.
1. 19th century
2. 1st qtr 20th century
3. 2nd qtr 20th
4. 50's and 60's
5. 70's and 80's
6. 90's till date

try these and it is more fun, less argumentative, more easy to place contemporaries in context etc.
Try it

Not convinced with your last 2, richards and Tendulkar

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Not convinced with your last 2, richards and Tendulkar

I think Richards is probably a fair pick. There are other great batsmen from that era, even some who had better records than him, but none had as big an impact on the game. I suppose it depends on exactly how heavily you weight impact vs statistical record. Regarding Tendulkar, I'm pretty sure I saw SJS come up with these same eras once before but pick Lara as the master of the 90s.

I'll try doing two for each era, just for fun.

19th century: Grace & ??? (okay, not sure here)
1900-1924: Hobbs & Trumper
1925-1949: Bradman & Hammond
1950-1969: Sobers & Barrington
1970-1989: Richards & G. Chappell
1990-2005: Lara & S. Waugh

And just for good measue, a bowler.
19th century: Lohmann
1900-1924: Barnes
1925-1949: Larwood/O'Reilly (tough call for an era dominated by batsmen)
1950-1969: Davidson/Trueman
1970-1989: Hadlee/Holding
1990-2005: McGrath

I'm trying to pick these players as much on impact as statistical record, but in the end it tends to rely on both to some degree.

 

[Black Thunder]

Herb Sutcliffe
Jack Hobbs
Don Bradman
Graeme Pollock
Gary Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Keith Miller
Malcolm Marshall
Joel Garner
Bill O'Reilly
Jim Laker

It's so open to opinion though.

Basically for mine i think Hobbs is the opener you have to include and you could take one of Sutcliffe, Hutton, Gavaskar, Trumper amogst others

Bradman has number 3 spot nailed down.

number 4 spot could go to one of about 20 players.

Sobers at 5.

Gilchrist keeper/batsmen a definate IMO. Just gives you so many more options, rather than taking a top line keeper who doesn't offer much with the bat.

Because of the short batting line-up at least one of Keith Miller or Imran Khan has to be batting number 7.

The only bowler garunateed in the for me is Malcolm Marshall. Other opening bowling positions is open to about 20 bowlers, and the spinners could come from any two of O'Reilly, Laker, Grimmett, Murali and Warne, although i think with two spinners you'd be best to have a leg spin-off spin combination.

Because of having Miller/Khan you can have two spinners, alongside three seamers and Gary Sobers.

 

[SJS]

Not convinced with your last 2, richards and Tendulkar

Yes. I understand the sentiment.
There hasnt been a cricketer who has so dominated the cricket world since Sobers. I took these two after some internal deliberation as a compromise

Lets first understand, we are not talking of a cricketer who is the "equal" as it were of the good doctor, Don, Hobbs and Sobers but rather one who was THE dominant cricketer of his era. In this respect I thought Richards came closest to dominating the 70's/80's (unless we combine the west Indies pace bowlers and give them a name). As far as sachin is concerned, I think this debate is more valid today when he appears to be past his best than it would have been , say, five years ago and also because there has been Lara. I dont think calling it a Lara era would be consided more fair. So maybe we should call it the twin spinners era clubbing Warne and Murali together.

I suppose we could combine the last two periods and call it the post packer era

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Here's my attempt at making XIs for each of SJS's eras. I didn't bother with the 19th century one, partially because my knowledge of cricket from that period is reasonably limited, but mostly because I stole half the good 19th century players for my first 20th century XI if they played on both sides of the turn of the century.


1900-1924
Jack Hobbs
Victor Trumper
Clem Hill
Charlie Macartney
Monty Noble
Warwick Armstrong (c)
Wilfred Rhodes
Arthur Lilley (k)
Hugh Trumble
Colin Blythe
Sydney Barnes
12th Man: Jack Ryder


1925-1949
Len Hutton
Herbert Sutcliffe
Donald Bradman (c)
George Headley
Walter Hammond
Stan McCabe
Keith Miller
Les Ames (k)
Ray Lindwall
Harold Larwood
Bill O'Reilly
12th Man: Hedley Verity


1950-1969
Bob Simpson
Conrad Hunte
Graeme Pollock
Neil Harvey
Ken Barrington
Gary Sobers (c)
Alan Davidson
Wally Grout (k)
Fred Trueman
Jim Laker
Frank Tyson
12th Man: Richie Benaud


1970-1989
Gordon Greenidge
Sunil Gavaskar
Vivian Richards
Javed Miandad
Greg Chappell
Clive Lloyd (c)
Imran Khan
Alan Knott (k)
Richard Hadlee
Dennis Lillee
Malcolm Marshall/Michael Holding
12th Man: Ian Botham


1990-2005
Matthew Hayden
Justin Langer
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Steven Waugh (c)
Adam Gilchrist (k)
Wasim Akram
Shane Warne
Curtley Ambrose
Glenn McGrath
12th Man: Ricky Ponting

 

[JBH001]

1. J B Hobbs
2. S M Gavaskar
3. D Bradman
4. W Hammond
5. G Chappell
6. G S Sobers
7. A Gilchrist
8. S K Warne
9. D K Lillee
10. G McGrath
11. S F Barnes
12. M Muralitheran

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Not bad.....but doesn't McGrath at 10 mean a long tail?

 

[SJS]

Grace's Era


1 WG Grace (Captain)(RALS)
2 Arthur Shrewsbury
3 Ranjitsinhji
4 Clem Hill
5 Stan Jackson (RAM) .24 wkts at 33.3 each
6 George Giffen(RAMP). 103 wkts at 27.1 each
7 Bill Murdoch (keeper)
8 Charlie Turner (RAFM). 101 wkts at 16.5 each
9 George Lohmann(RAM). 112 at 10.8 each.
10 Johnny Briggs (LAS). 118 wkts at 17.8 each
11 Tom Richardson (RAF) 88 wkts at 25.2 each
Very balanced side. Very strong bowling. No off spinners.

Hobbs' Era
1 Hobbs
2 Trumper
3 Woolley (LAS)
4 Faulkner(LBG)
5 Macartney(LAS)
6 Armstrong (Captain)(LB)
7 Jack Gregory(RAF)
8 Strudwick (keeper)
9 Rhodes(LAS)
10 Tate(RFM)
11 Barnes(RMP)
Very long bowling line up ! No off spinners.Replacing one of the all rounders with Hugh Trumble could address that.


Bradman's Era
1 Sutcliffe
2 Ponsford
3 Bradman (Captain)
4 Headley
5 Hammond(RMP)
6 Ames (Keeper)
7 Constantine(RAF)
8 Bill Voce(LAMP)
9 Larwood(RAF)
10 Verity(LAS)
11 Orielly/Grimmett(LBG)
Very strong batting and excellent spinners. No off spinners.

Sobers Era
1 Hutton
2 Bert Sutcliffe
3 Weekes
4 Compton
5 Worrell(Captain)(LB)
6 Sobers(LAS, LAMP)
7 Evans(Keeper)
8 Lindwall(RAF)
9 Trueman(RAF)
10 Bedser(RAMP)
11 Laker(OS)
Excellent side. Versatile bowling and solid batting. No great leg spinner. Replacing Bedser with Benaud removes that and strengthens batting.

Richards' Era
1 Gavaskar
2 Barry Richards
3 Zaheer Abbas
4 Viv Richards
5 Greg Chappell
6 Imran Khan(Captain)(RAF)
7 Hadlee(RAMF)
8 Bob Taylor(Keeper)
9 Lillee(RAF)
10 Bedi(LAS)
11 Chandrashekhar(LBG)
Excellent spinners though no off spinner. Weakest number six in batting.

Modern Era
1 Gooch
2 Hayden
3 Kallis(RAMP)
4 Tendulkar
5 Lara
6 Steve Waugh(captain)
7 Healy(keeper)
8 Warne(LB)
9 Donald(RAF)
10 Ambrose(RAF)
11 Murali(OS)
Lacking a great allrounder. Great spinners.

Plenty of controversies, plenty of disagreements, plenty of great players not included

No west Indian great fast bowlers of the 70's/80's. No Pakistani pacers of recent times, no Mcgrath

 

[Black Thunder]

not bad teams SJS but why the emphasis on off spinners?? (well not so much emphasis, but constant comments regarding lack of off spinner)

Aside from Laker and Murali, there really aren't any off spinners who'd i'd want in this sought of company?? A highly overrated bowling style.