Ashes Squad Announced

[Craig]

Lewis not being selected is pretty obvious in my book, swing bowlers rarely come out with any sort of success in Australia, and Lewis hardly set the world alight when he played test cricket in England anyways.
Whether or not hes better than Plunkett or Mahmood that is another story, but i personally would have had a mystery player like Owais Shah(somebody who the Aussies wouldnt know much about) in there instead of Plunkett.

In Perth they do depending on the right conditions and sometimes in Brisbane.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Where's Gary Pratt?

I'd have him in my side ahead of Mahmood or Plunkett.

I'm serious.

 

[tooextracool]

100% agree i've had this idea for a long time & if you look to the future beyond the Ashes with the likely return of Jones & Vaughan i think a 4-man attack will have to be strongly considered because its a fact if Panesar holds on to the main spinner role plus 4 other bowlers England's will have a LONG tail.

So in the future the idea of i.e either picking 4-seamers in Harmy/Hoggard/Freddie/Jones or 3 seamers & Panesar since it as Australia have shown once they are top class 4 specialist bowlers can certainly do the job & it will make England much stronger.

Trescothick
Strauss
Vaughan
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Read
Harmison
Jones
Hoggard/Panesar

That team certainly has the potential to dominate world cricket

But looking at the ashes if the selectors pick 4-seamers it will depend on Flintoff's form with the ball going into the series.

Yet three of the bowlers you have mentioned would be bowling for the first time in international cricket after god knows how long. if even one of them happens to break down during the first test, England would have pretty much lost the test already having to play with only 3 bowlers(not to mention a feeling of deja vu at Brisbane). One would think that we would have learnt our lesson from the last tour down under

 

[tooextracool]

Didn't Shah play his first games of international cricket against Australia?

yes in a completely different format over 5 years ago.
can hardly see how thats relevant.

 

[tooextracool]

In Perth they do depending on the right conditions and sometimes in Brisbane.

Perth has always been known to be bouncy and to offer bounce and seam as opposed to swing. As such a lot of the commentators on sky have been mentioning recently that Perth has been assisting spinners recently, if that is to be believed.
Brisbane does occasionally help swing, but the idea of having Lewis in there merely for Brisbane, which is more likely to not help swing bowlers than the contrary would be far fetched IMO

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I don't see what the big gripe is about England picking injured players. If they're not fit, they'll be replaced. That's why there's a contingency plan with players based in Australia during the Ashes. The thinking is that England has picked the squad of their best players (ECB's thought process - not mine) and if those players aren't fit, they'll be replaced by players from the second tier.

It doesn't work the other way around. If you pick your second tier first (who are all fit) and none break down with injury, you can't bring in your frontliner who may have recovered from injury at that stage.

 

[tooextracool]

I don't see what the big gripe is about England picking injured players. If they're not fit, they'll be replaced. That's why there's a contingency plan with players based in Australia during the Ashes. The thinking is that England has picked the squad of their best players (ECB's thought process - not mine) and if those players aren't fit, they'll be replaced by players from the second tier.

It doesn't work the other way around. If you pick your second tier first (who are all fit) and none break down with injury, you can't bring in your frontliner who may have recovered from injury at that stage.

I dont have a problem with picking injured players in the squad when you have a back up squad, but the logic of going in with a 4 man attack and including 3 fast bowlers(Jones, Harmison and Flintoff) all of whom are returning from injury is quite stupid.

 

[Burgey]

Perth has always been known to be bouncy and to offer bounce and seam as opposed to swing. As such a lot of the commentators on sky have been mentioning recently that Perth has been assisting spinners recently, if that is to be believed.
Brisbane does occasionally help swing, but the idea of having Lewis in there merely for Brisbane, which is more likely to not help swing bowlers than the contrary would be far fetched IMO

I'd be a bit sceptical about that. WA had the best up and coming wrist spinner in Australia, Beau Casson, and he moved to NSW to get a game, which suggests the pitch may not be that helpful.

Swing bowlers have done well in Perth in the past, Terry Alderman springs to mind. Especially in the afternoon when the breeze pops in. Perth is still bouncy but no where like what it was say 10-20 years ago. It's becoming a victim of the homogenising of pitches in Australia, unfortunately.

 

[GIMH]

I dont have a problem with picking injured players in the squad when you have a back up squad, but the logic of going in with a 4 man attack and including 3 fast bowlers(Jones, Harmison and Flintoff) all of whom are returning from injury is quite stupid.

Well noone expects Jones to play, do they? I would have thought Hoggard, Harmison & Flintoff would be the pace attack if we play just three seamers

 

[tooextracool]

Well noone expects Jones to play, do they? I would have thought Hoggard, Harmison & Flintoff would be the pace attack if we play just three seamers

The squad that was selected by the quoted person in my post included Jones.
I still would go in with 5 bowlers for the first test instead of 4, because England really cant afford to take the risk of having one of them breaking down and then playing with 3 bowlers. And when 2 of them are still soft and just coming out of injury, its way too risky IMO. the 4 bowler attack should only be a realistic option if everyone is fully match fit, which i doubt will be the case at the start of the series.

 

[tooextracool]

I'd be a bit sceptical about that. WA had the best up and coming wrist spinner in Australia, Beau Casson, and he moved to NSW to get a game, which suggests the pitch may not be that helpful.

Swing bowlers have done well in Perth in the past, Terry Alderman springs to mind. Especially in the afternoon when the breeze pops in. Perth is still bouncy but no where like what it was say 10-20 years ago. It's becoming a victim of the homogenising of pitches in Australia, unfortunately.

In my times of watching cricket at Perth which includes most of the 90s and 2000s, i havent seen too many swing bowlers come out with consistent success. Certainly ive rarely seen too many deliveries bending around all over the place and theres no reason why that would change IMO.

 

[Prince EWS]

Lewis not being selected is pretty obvious in my book, swing bowlers rarely come out with any sort of success in Australia, and Lewis hardly set the world alight when he played test cricket in England anyways.
Whether or not hes better than Plunkett or Mahmood that is another story, but i personally would have had a mystery player like Owais Shah(somebody who the Aussies wouldnt know much about) in there instead of Plunkett.

Yep, I agree. Plunkett was a pretty silly pick IMO. I can understand picking half-fit players that haven't been in the side recently if they are experienced and have decent records, but Plunkett is neither. There is also only one specialist batsman in reserve (and in fact 0 if Flintoff bats at 7 which is looking unlikely) so someone like Shah, Joyce or even Key would have been a much better pick.

And before anyone mentions it, I don't see Plunkett's batting being any more useful than mine against Shane Warne. From what I've seen, he looks quite the bunny against the most pedestrian of spinners, let alone the best in the world.

 

[tooextracool]

Yep, I agree. Plunkett was a pretty silly pick IMO. I can understand picking half-fit players that haven't been in the side recently if they are experienced and have decent records, but Plunkett is neither. There is also only one specialist batsman in reserve (and in fact 0 if Flintoff bats at 7 which is looking unlikely) so someone like Shah, Joyce or even Key would have been a much better pick.

Yea its something am absolutely baffled with. If Flintoff bats at 7 or if Tresco's mysterious illness reoccurs while another batsman gets a stomach bug on the eve of a test match, its going to be absolutely impossible for them to fly someone from reserve squad halfway across australia in time for the test match.
Shah would have been my pick, because he did everything right in his only test and also because unlike Key he hasnt failed against them at the test arena before.

 

[Goughy]

Lewis not being selected is pretty obvious in my book, swing bowlers rarely come out with any sort of success in Australia, and Lewis hardly set the world alight when he played test cricket in England anyways.

I was interested in this. Is it true? its all of Ausralia? or is it only certain grounds?

My partly scientific analysis was to take the first 3 Australian swing bowlers that came into my head (Alderman, Reiffel and Reid) and compared their combined career records at Australian grounds.

The results were interesting and shows that there are places in Aus that are conducive to swing and others that are not.

Ground Runs Wickets Overall Average
Adelaide Oval 564 22 25.64
Bellerive Oval 314 13 24.15
Brisbane Cricket Gr 1076 44 24.45
Melbourne Cricket Gr 1322 63 20.98
Sydney Cricket Grnd 730 19 38.42
W.A.C.A. Ground 1086 38 28.58

Clearly Sydney is not the place for swing bowlers and Perth is not conducive. However, swing bowling can be successful in Brisbane, Adelaide and especially Melbourne.

 

[aussie]

Yet three of the bowlers you have mentioned would be bowling for the first time in international cricket after god knows how long. if even one of them happens to break down during the first test, England would have pretty much lost the test already having to play with only 3 bowlers(not to mention a feeling of deja vu at Brisbane). One would think that we would have learnt our lesson from the last tour down under

The side that i picked there is in reference to the future beyond the ashes.

 

[greg]

I would like this to be the team:

Tres/Colly
Strauss
Cook
Pietersen
Bell
Flintoff
Dalrymple
Read
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar

Unfortunately the selectors have made the mistake of picking Giles, so I suspect we will be looking at the above team with Giles instead of Dalrymple. So two no8s in the team, instead of a no7 and a no8. Giles is the better bowler but i don't expect the number of overs required of him to justify his position. Dalrymple is the bigger spinner of the ball.

Remember there is no reason why we can't play two spinners in every match. There is an extremely respectable case to be made for playing only four bowlers, so the need for "conditions to suit" isn't really an issue.

 

[greg]

Yea its something am absolutely baffled with. If Flintoff bats at 7 or if Tresco's mysterious illness reoccurs while another batsman gets a stomach bug on the eve of a test match, its going to be absolutely impossible for them to fly someone from reserve squad halfway across australia in time for the test match.
Shah would have been my pick, because he did everything right in his only test and also because unlike Key he hasnt failed against them at the test arena before.

Mark Butcher would have been the most sensible pick as a reserve batsman. A proven record at test level, and a reputation for not needing warm up games to find his form.

And fwiw he's been in good form in the Second Division for Surrey.

 

[tooextracool]

I was interested in this. Is it true? its all of Ausralia? or is it only certain grounds?

My partly scientific analysis was to take the first 3 Australian swing bowlers that came into my head (Alderman, Reiffel and Reid) and compared their combined career records at Australian grounds.

The results were interesting and shows that there are places in Aus that are conducive to swing and others that are not.

Ground Runs Wickets Overall Average
Adelaide Oval 564 22 25.64
Bellerive Oval 314 13 24.15
Brisbane Cricket Gr 1076 44 24.45
Melbourne Cricket Gr 1322 63 20.98
Sydney Cricket Grnd 730 19 38.42
W.A.C.A. Ground 1086 38 28.58

Clearly Sydney is not the place for swing bowlers and Perth is not conducive. However, swing bowling can be successful in Brisbane, Adelaide and especially Melbourne.

For me in recent times, in the last decade or so, swing bowling in general in Australia has been largely useless. There are very rare occasions when a swing bowler has succeeded using conventional methods of swing only and i dont think that much is going to change this time around.

 

[tooextracool]

Mark Butcher would have been the most sensible pick as a reserve batsman. A proven record at test level, and a reputation for not needing warm up games to find his form.

And fwiw he's been in good form in the Second Division for Surrey.

Mark Butcher would have been my pick as well, Ideally because unlike all the other reserve batsmen- key and shah hes actually had a good last season. Also, you know what you're going to get from Butcher, because not only does he have experience in these conditions but hes also scored runs against Australia in the past.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Ramprakash to be the reserve batsman. You can't argue against 2,000 first class runs in a season can you?