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Your ATG team pace bowling trio

Who do you select in your all-time side?


  • Total voters
    77

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You definitely care how I rate him, let's not pretend.
I don't which is why I haven't even responded to your arguments about his bowling and batting. I don't care about changing your mind on that point.

I've made counter arguments that you've ignored, even in this thread. But please tell me the counter arguments for the highlighted players that I've ignored.

Is that I've ignored or just have a different opinion to others.

Please, please highlight the standard that I've ignored. In a totally honest and transparent post, where you're not cutting shirt what I've said, please tell me what standard that I've ignored. Since @OverratedSanity is agreeing with you, he's free to chime in as well.
Why don't we start with the contradictions I have listed earlier for Imran and we can talk about the others
Here are some of Kyear tricks to downgrade Imran:

- Passionately argue against ever considering batting for your bowling spots yet then acknowledge the batting value of the tail when Imran is not in the conversation

- Push for the legitimacy of WSC for Viv and Barry but not Imran

- Pick the period of Imran's bowling prime (76 to 88) yet only highlight batting numbers like RPI during it and not bowling numbers to make his batting seem worse

- Nitpick great series performances like in WI yet never mention weaker lineups played by other ATG bowlers

- Pick out higher average and SR countries for Imran to highlight and never for others

- Ignore any time Imran has ever been selected in an ATG XI and argue consensus against him, yet never raise this issue if Hadlee is selected as an excuse to not have him in the side

- Pretend there is a wide gulf between him and other top tier pacers as a unstated premise for selection criteria though few in any agree

- Ignore Imran's captaincy entirely in rating him as a cricketer but insist slips must be a selection criteria

- Insist Imran is a cheat yet pretend this allegation doesn't affect his judgement in making these arguments

- Verbally abuse and mock those who push for Imran yet insist he is impartial
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Okay I'm glad you've given up on it, it's just not worth your time imo.
It's just whenever you two debate Imran always seems to be brought up at some point, it's like watching a TV show with the same rehashed plot over and over again, it must get boring.

That's fine if you don't like how he grades his criteria, realistically I don't think anyone here can actually be fully consistent/rigid on what their judgement is because cricket/sport in general is contextual especially when it comes to rating players because no player faces the exact same conditions as another. If he's insisting on rigid criteria sure call that out but he is raising other points too (I realise he doesn't address every argument himself either).

People are going to have their favourites & you can point out the flaws/strengths of each player but realistically pretty much everyone here has caveats to their ATG selections. How do we know how someone like Hobbs might fair against express pace reverse swing bowling or how Tendulkar would go on a sticky wicket? What conditions are we putting this ATG team in? There's no defined place & time when it occurs, it's all subjective & there is no perfect ATG team, which makes it fun to debate.

You can call out criteria inconsistencies if he's using that against other players and not his own but try to focus on what he's actually putting forward in each point. For example he doesn't rate Imran as highly as others because he doesn't swing it both ways & the home vs away record.
The supposed inconsistent criteria regarding the balance of primary & secondary skills within team structure isn't the main reason he's picking certain players, it's really about which individual players he rates higher mostly based on their primary skill & how he can justify selecting them in a team. He might rate Hadlee higher than Akram as a bowler but he selects Akram because he prefers what he offers with the old ball and it contrasts to his other bowlers. He's given his selected bowlers roles in the side, he rates Marshall & McGrath the best & because they contrast they're in the side just for their primary skill alone. Because they're opening the bowling he wants someone else good with an older ball, in which he rates Akram & Steyn above Imran. He's making choices on competitive balance to the XI.

I don't think he was suggesting the Imran/Knott combination couldn't get 20 wickets (he may think it's slightly harder to achieve idk). But if I'm reading this correctly, his view is Knott's increase in keeping skill might help offset the slight decline in Imran's bowling quality in taking 20 wickets in comparison to an Akram/Gilchrist combination, while still maintaining a comparable strong batting presence. But he did say that he preferred the Akram/Gilchrist combination more & gave reasons for that including that Gilchrist has experience keeping to Warne & that Gilchrist offers more with his batting. Plus he rates Akram's bowling higher.

He wants to have good batting where possible, he just doesn't want to skimp on wicket taking quality in pursuit of that. I'm not sure what the inconsistency is here? Unless he thinks Gilchrist/Akram is worse off wicket taking wise vs Imran/Knott for the team. He just rates one selection pairing over another for the benefits it brings to the team.

There's no issue in critiquing his choice for Barry as an example if he uses short test records for other players against them but in other matters you're better off arguing about players personal merits rather than criteria that is always going to be contextual/not bulletproof.
For example you could say Imran didn't need outswing to get wickets given his record or that he's won player of the series awards in away nations. Not "you're inconsistent considering Imran for the first XI because he pairs well with Knott". He clearly does value depth in batting to some extent down to number 8 but it's a balancing act for the team overall.

Going from his XI he believes Gilchrist & higher bowling quality (Akram) is better than Knott & lower bowling quality (Imran) for his 1st ATG XI.
If he changes his XI to Knott/Imran (while still believing Akram is a better bowler than Imran) you will have a point to raise regarding sacrificing bowling quality for batting but at least for this selection pairing, his logic is consistent for choosing his first XI.
I was going to pick out phrases, but yeah the entire post covers what I've been saying.

Imran's in my 2nd team, he's not awful, not a discarded hack, I have him squarely in the same tier as Lillee, Holding, Donald, Wasim etc etc. Dude's an ATG, as good as any all rounder not named Sobers.

Re Barry, it's simple. Many people choose Sunny in their XI, during their playing careers, Barry was rated higher, he was better, higher than Chappell as well. Every great bowler who bowled to both rated him higher. And why was this, his performance against said bowlers and most importantly he was better vs pace on helpful tracks, either fast or seaming. He was capable of giving inputs to or accelerating an innings in all conditions unlike any batsman in history. He was also a better slip, and anyone coming at me with that's not important, haven't wanted cricket the past two months, or ever for that matter.

In terms of quality, skill set and utility, Barry wins out. As I've made the argument in multiple threads, there's a difference between better and better career. And Barry was well and extensively tested vs the very best.

Re Wasim, there's an entire thread here where he's voted the best old ball bowler of all time, with extensive reasons given as to why. 2nd in said poll was Steyn, again with reasons given as to the why. With regards to Wasim, the fact that he was just as effective with the old ball even without reverse, and could move the ball both ways with old and new, and his insane peer rating just moves the needle for me.

The fact that those two selections are so contentious is crazy to me, Wasim is right up there with Imran in this thread, and made both the Wisden and Cricinfo squads. Barry made the same Cricinfo 2nd team that Sunny did and makes significantly more than Sutcliffe and isn't far behind Sunny. They're both viable and oft selected players.
 

Cipher

School Boy/Girl Captain
I don't think he is capable of viewing Imran with any degree of objectivity
That's fair, he might argue you also have favouritism for him as well though. Just a cursed topic between you both.

Kyear who will go on and on ad nauseum to not just me but many others about how his criteria are somehow like immutable principles.

I can give you examples if you wish. It is the disconnect between his matter of fact framing and the clear contradictions of not using criteria with other cricketers that creates issues. If he was casual about it rather than passionately trying to prove those who disagree wrong, nobody would care
If that's how it is sure, as long as you're correctly interpreting his points/criteria in the first place & then finding flaws in it. You're passionate too though which is why he cares enough to argue back.

As for Knott/Imran, there are inconsistencies because he has tried to display Imran as not that good of a lower order bat yet in the case of select Knott will select Imran as a necessity for his batting.
Not that good of a lower order bat in comparison to who? I've read him say he isn't a good enough established batsman that could play in the top 6 for AT sides which is true. But I haven't read anything to suggest he would say his batting is worse than other number 8's. He's said that lower order batting is less impactful than higher order batsmen which is also true.

If he's selecting Imran it's because partly he believes of all the ATG bowlers who can balance out Knott's lower batting average he is the one to do it. You can claim that he isn't as good a bat as recognised batsmen but can still say he has batting utility for team balance. I don't think that's an inconsistency.

However, he has said that even if Wasim has no batting skill he would prefer to select him if Gilly is around. Essentially four tailenders from 8 to 11
Because he primarily puts importance on bowling skill, batting skill is a bonus. Batting skill matters less for the bowlers if Gilly is at 7 rather than Knott. Don't forget he has Marshall & Warne in his side as well who can still perform 8 & 9 to an acceptable standard.

but then will bring up Imran's bowling ranking to suggest he isn't good enough for the bowling lineup whereas he rates Wasim lower.
I have my doubts if he personally ranks Wasim a lower quality bowler, but picks him instead of Imran. That should be explained why, which I'm pretty sure he has done earlier in this thread re: swinging the ball both ways etc. I haven't seen him say that he thinks Imran is better than Wasim though. Considering he brings up peer reviews as an argument as to how Wasim was rated vs Imran & the level of critique he has for Imran compared to Wasim that would make me think he prefers Wasim. He may just be raising cricketwebs rankings of bowlers idk. But as you said it's because he rates Wasim's old ball bowling better which serves more purpose to his team. He may also personally just not want Imran in his team due to questions of his record.

Kyear once faked his ATG XIs selection to have Imran is the third XI, and later admitted falsifying it was all a ruse to trigger me in a thread I was not even involved in.
I know I made the original thread where he admitted this, he actually has him in his 2nd XI. Trolling is annoying but you need to let this go, he debates intentionally for 99% of the other times. There's plenty of other posters who post facetiously more than he does.

And it wouldn't be as big a problem if he wasn't so sanctimonious about it with essay long posts.
Of course, I don't doubt he's been nasty in some of his responses to a number of people but you & I can also get petty too on occasion. You & I have also written long posts, I'm not saying you have to get along with him but remember that you're engaging with someone that has some similar traits to you (passionate, analytical, determined) even if your viewpoints differ in some regards. That's just why I've been saying don't bother antagonising on old points, it's like fighting a reflection of yourself & it leads nowhere. If it's new and there's understanding to be had then great but don't waste your time on stuff that ain't changing. Your differing views on Imran Khan is the best example of this.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
If he's selecting Imran it's because partly he believes of all the ATG bowlers who can balance out Knott's lower batting average he is the one to do it. You can claim that he isn't as good a bat as recognised batsmen but can still say he has batting utility for team balance. I don't think that's an inconsistency.
The inconsistency is how he frames lower order batting at no.8 from not allowing batting to be a criteria to considering Imran an automatic selection based on batting thanks to Knott. Again, if he just said it was all contextual rather than frame lower order batting in absolutes, no issue.

Because he primarily puts importance on bowling skill, batting skill is a bonus. Batting skill matters less for the bowlers if Gilly is at 7 rather than Knott. Don't forget he has Marshall & Warne in his side as well who can still perform 8 & 9 to an acceptable standard.
I don't think he actually believes that though and I don't think he would have Wasim in his side if Wasim couldn't bat at no.8 IMO with a 20 something average. It's more him digging his heels.

I have my doubts if he personally ranks Wasim a lower quality bowler, but picks him instead of Imran. That should be explained why, which I'm pretty sure he has done earlier in this thread re: swinging the ball both ways etc. I haven't seen him say that he thinks Imran is better than Wasim though. Considering he brings up peer reviews as an argument as to how Wasim was rated vs Imran & the level of critique he has for Imran compared to Wasim that would make me think he prefers Wasim. He may just be raising cricketwebs rankings of bowlers idk. But as you said it's because he rates Wasim's old ball bowling better which serves more purpose to his team. He may also personally just not want Imran in his team due to questions of his record.
No, Imran is his eighth ranked bowler and Wasim is near or outside top ten. So he jumps Wasim ahead of Imran but brings up Imran's ranking to suggest he should not be there.

I know I made the original thread where he admitted this, he actually has him in his 2nd XI. Trolling is annoying but you need to let this go, he debates intentionally for 99% of the other times. There's plenty of other posters who post facetiously more than he does.
I wasn't even interacting in the thread he was trolling. In all likelihood it would have not gone noticed. All this shows is that he clearly has some personally vested reasons for how he frames Imran.

Of course, I don't doubt he's been nasty in some of his responses to a number of people but you & I can also get petty too on occasion. You & I have also written long posts, I'm not saying you have to get along with him but remember that you're engaging with someone that has some similar traits to you (passionate, analytical, determined) even if your viewpoints differ in some regards. That's just why I've been saying don't bother antagonising on old points, it's like fighting a reflection of yourself & it leads nowhere. If it's new and there's understanding to be had then great but don't waste your time on stuff that ain't changing. Your differing views on Imran Khan is the best example of this.
Several differences though.

Kyear has sworn at me multiple times and been derogatory. He has done that to opponents in this very thread when he gets frustrated. I've never done that.

Kyear gets constantly accused of avoiding an opponent's point when inconvenient. Again look in this thread. I do not, I like to get to the heart of a disagreement, as you can see in our exchanges.
 

Cipher

School Boy/Girl Captain
In terms of quality, skill set and utility, Barry wins out. As I've made the argument in multiple threads, there's a difference between better and better career. And Barry was well and extensively tested vs the very best.
No problem to argue it this way, as long as domestic/WSC competitions against top quality players are fine to include as a barometer for a players skill & not just tests, and that you consider this with every player if it's brought up. If you were going to disregard the skill of someone like Ranjitsinhji purely because he didn't play enough test cricket but rated Richards that's where I'd find an inconsistency in your argument.

Re Wasim, there's an entire thread here where he's voted the best old ball bowler of all time, with extensive reasons given as to why.
Can you clear the air for subs whether you personally rank Imran or Wasim a better overall bowler?
And if you rank Imran higher as an overall bowler, is the reason you pick Akram instead because you pick Akram's old ball bowling higher? Or is there different reasons?
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Can you clear the air for subs whether you personally rank Imran or Wasim a better overall bowler?
And if you rank Imran higher as an overall bowler, is the reason you pick Akram instead because you pick Akram's old ball bowling higher? Or is there different reasons?
That's not the issue. He can pick Wasim over Imran based on old ball skills. But then it makes no sense to criticize Imran's bowling ranking if he picks a pacer who is ranked lower than him. That's the contradiction.
 

Cipher

School Boy/Girl Captain
The inconsistency is how he frames lower order batting at no.8 from not allowing batting to be a criteria to considering Imran an automatic selection. Again, if he just said it was all contextual rather than frame it in absolute, no issue.
I don't think that's how he frames it though. I think it's that prioritising your choices on the batting ability of bowlers as a difference maker isn't the top priority. He said earlier he would have questions if he included both Bumrah & McGrath in his XI for the tail, so he doesn't see it as a non criteria it's just a lower priority than if their contrasting bowling styles go well together. He thinks that some people are making their choices on bowlers with considerable weighting on their batting ability rather than elements of their primary job, that's the main issue he has.

But if he's been dogmatic about how batting at number 7/8 has no impact & it's not contextual, sure take it up with him. My memory from my Bowling allrounders thread was that he mainly had gripes with if you're considering the batting ability of your number 10 & 11 as an important means of selection. But there is a bit of inconsistency going on here however if he's thinking that Bumrah & McGrath in the same side is potentially problematic because they would be 10 & 11. This is where he needs to say that it is contextual & not absolute.

I don't think he actually believes that though and I don't think he would have Wasim in his side if Wasim couldn't bat at no.8 IMO. It's more him digging his heels.
Well I can't say what he truly believes or not you'd have to ask him, from what I understand he's basically set on Marshall & McGrath as two of his pacers & then its deciding on the 3rd bowler. To me he places old ball/reverse swing bowling ability as the most important aspect of that 3rd bowler because he mentions Wasim, Steyn, Imran THEN Hadlee in that order as his options. Considering Hadlee is a better bat than both Wasim & Steyn it's clear he's valuing reverse swing bowling over batting.

But then it makes no sense to criticize Imran's bowling ranking if he picks a pacer who is ranked lower than him. That's the contradiction.
Ahhhh okay sorry I didn't realise that was your point, it's his criticism's of others choices & using bowling ranking as an argument sure that's fine to take issue with.

I wasn't even interacting in the thread he was trolling. All this shows is that he clearly has some personally vested reasons for how he frames Imran.
Yeah it's silly to have done that. But now that you're aware he's done that in the past you know that engaging on it with him is going to annoy you every time now because you'll keep thinking of that rather than the potentially valid arguments he's putting forward. If you think he's compromised on the topic of Imran, don't engage.

Kyear gets constantly accused of avoiding an opponent's point when inconvenient. Again look in this thread. I do not, I like to get to the heart of a disagreement, as you can see in our exchanges.
Yes he does but sometimes you might misinterpret/misrepresent or focus on the wrong parts of some of your opponents views. While it's not the exact same it is still a way of avoiding the argued point. I can respect that you try to discuss as many points raised as you can if it's at odds with your beliefs rather than just ignoring it. The rudeness by Kyear should be done without but some (not all) of his frustrations during a debate are justified when his points aren't being discussed correctly. I wasn't trying to say who is better, my point was more to say that you & he have lots of long arguments on here more than others because of some similar traits that come to fruition when arguing. It's that repetition of the same arguments that gets tiresome wouldn't you agree? That's why I asked if you're getting enjoyment out of it or if it's better to just not bother engaging.
 

Srinath P

U19 12th Man
I think I've posted my XI already here but let me post it again anyways.

Hobbs, Hutton, Don, Sachin, Sobers, Gilchrist, Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne, Barnes

Though I have gone for Imran, Hadlee and Marshall as my 3 pacers here, if we go purely on bowling, I think Hadlee, Marshall and one of Steyn and McGrath would make it.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yes he does but sometimes you might misinterpret/misrepresent or focus on the wrong parts of some of your opponents views. While it's not the exact same it is still a way of avoiding the argued point. I can respect that you try to discuss as many points raised as you can if it's at odds with your beliefs rather than just ignoring it. The rudeness by Kyear should be done without but some (not all) of his frustrations during a debate are justified when his points aren't being discussed correctly. I wasn't trying to say who is better, my point was more to say that you & he have lots of long arguments on here more than others because of some similar traits that come to fruition when arguing. It's that repetition of the same arguments that gets tiresome wouldn't you agree? That's why I asked if you're getting enjoyment out of it or if it's better to just not bother engaging.
Look I am fully fine with parting ways from engaging with Kyear.

In fact, I privately messaged him many months ago that we should have a truce regarding debating on Imran. He never responded.

And then he put me recently in ignore mode. Which is also fine, except for the fact that after he did then every second post he was referring to me by name without having to deal with me responding. So he still wanted to talk about me but not talk to me directly.

Tell me, if that happened to you, would you find that a reason to view him a certain way? I don't see him as a good faith poster.
 

Cipher

School Boy/Girl Captain
Look I am fully fine with parting ways from engaging with Kyear.

In fact, I privately messaged him many months ago that we should have a truce regarding debating on Imran. He never responded.

And then he put me recently in ignore mode. Which is also fine, except for the fact that after he did then every second post he was referring to me by name without having to deal with me responding. So he still wanted to talk about me but not talk to me directly.

Tell me, if that happened to you, would you find that a reason to view him a certain way? I don't see him as a good faith poster.
Yes if I were in your shoes getting mentioned by someone but ignored at the same time I would be annoyed. That's a shame he couldn't agree to a truce on it. Kyear obviously has put a target on his back with some posters due to his sometimes abrasive style of comments but you've also had a laugh with others about rubbishing some of his views in return. Just desserts? Maybe. But the sniping has gone both ways at different times, you can't say all of Kyear's posts mentioning you have been entirely unprovoked if you've been pointing out apparent flaws in his thinking in comments to other posters during discussions. All I'm saying is you do have an influence on how you two engage with each other.

Not saying you have to like him or his posts, it was more about if you want to keep arguing about Imran or ignore it & move on. I just personally felt like it wasn't worth the energy/time commitment questioning him about Imran in that moment knowing you wouldn't get an answer from him that would satisfy you. But how you choose to react to his posts/make your own is up to you of course. Anyway I feel like I'm being a mediator or something weird at this point so I'll stop talking about it 😅
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
That's fair, he might argue you also have favouritism for him as well though. Just a cursed topic between you both.


If that's how it is sure, as long as you're correctly interpreting his points/criteria in the first place & then finding flaws in it. You're passionate too though which is why he cares enough to argue back.


Not that good of a lower order bat in comparison to who? I've read him say he isn't a good enough established batsman that could play in the top 6 for AT sides which is true. But I haven't read anything to suggest he would say his batting is worse than other number 8's. He's said that lower order batting is less impactful than higher order batsmen which is also true.

If he's selecting Imran it's because partly he believes of all the ATG bowlers who can balance out Knott's lower batting average he is the one to do it. You can claim that he isn't as good a bat as recognised batsmen but can still say he has batting utility for team balance. I don't think that's an inconsistency.


Because he primarily puts importance on bowling skill, batting skill is a bonus. Batting skill matters less for the bowlers if Gilly is at 7 rather than Knott. Don't forget he has Marshall & Warne in his side as well who can still perform 8 & 9 to an acceptable standard.


I have my doubts if he personally ranks Wasim a lower quality bowler, but picks him instead of Imran. That should be explained why, which I'm pretty sure he has done earlier in this thread re: swinging the ball both ways etc. I haven't seen him say that he thinks Imran is better than Wasim though. Considering he brings up peer reviews as an argument as to how Wasim was rated vs Imran & the level of critique he has for Imran compared to Wasim that would make me think he prefers Wasim. He may just be raising cricketwebs rankings of bowlers idk. But as you said it's because he rates Wasim's old ball bowling better which serves more purpose to his team. He may also personally just not want Imran in his team due to questions of his record.


I know I made the original thread where he admitted this, he actually has him in his 2nd XI. Trolling is annoying but you need to let this go, he debates intentionally for 99% of the other times. There's plenty of other posters who post facetiously more than he does.


Of course, I don't doubt he's been nasty in some of his responses to a number of people but you & I can also get petty too on occasion. You & I have also written long posts, I'm not saying you have to get along with him but remember that you're engaging with someone that has some similar traits to you (passionate, analytical, determined) even if your viewpoints differ in some regards. That's just why I've been saying don't bother antagonising on old points, it's like fighting a reflection of yourself & it leads nowhere. If it's new and there's understanding to be had then great but don't waste your time on stuff that ain't changing. Your differing views on Imran Khan is the best example of this.
One at a time.

His idea of lack of objectivity is that I don't agree with him. So this question, is he one of the the three greatest fast bowlers of all time, no. Under all eventualities is he the greatest old ball bowler of all time, no. Was he more reliant than most on reverse swing, yes. Was his legacy built primarily on his home performances which were, yes, partially tainted by unprecedentedly biased home umpiring and rampant ball tampering? Yes. During his peak that's being discussed in another thread, of the 22 matches played during those 5 years, 16 were in Pakistan at an average of 12. The other 6 were in England and SL and wickets were taken at 18.

His lower order batting is among the 5 best ever, of the ones who even approaches all time great status as bowlers, only Pollock comes close and controversially Procter, was better. The overrating comes when people start quoting the 50 average over a decade. It's a hollow stat and everyone knows it, he never approached that quality or level. As a bowler between 74 and 88, Subz's preferred tl not mine, his rpi was 27, and even that with a high contributions from down hill skiing. He's a elite no. 8 at this level, but no higher than that. Knott has a higher rpi than he did @ 29 and performed better while batting at no. 7.

There's no inconsistency, he's not a good enough batsman to stake a claim based purely on that, but if additional balance is required, he's the one best suited to do so. He's the best of the available options. He harps on the fact that he would be the choice if Knott is selected, while avoiding the part that he's also the reason he ultimately isn't.

Yeah, everyone forgets that Marshall and Warne already provides better than average and pretty good depth. It's not a glaring weakness.

There's this wonderful article by Gideon Haigh, who speaks to selecting all time XIs which cemented my perception of same, where he simply asks, why choose 4 new ball bowlers when only two will get it, who fields at slip, complimentary batting styles etc etc. Wasim is seen by most as the best old ball bowler ever (Bumrah may soon supercede) who was just as effective if the ball wasn't reversing, and could move old and new ball alike both ways. With a cordon which he's afforded here, I think he's (for now) unquestionably the best option.

Essay long posts are required with him and his cohorts as they like to distort my positions
He still cherry picks, so what can one do.

I'm still awaiting responses with regards to the actual points made earlier.

The crazy thing is that we agree on most points outside of Imran (his childhood hero), slip fielding and Barry.

And when he speaks of bias it crazy considering his decade long crusades against Kallis, Ambrose and others because they're direct challengers to Imran.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
One at a time.

His idea of lack of objectivity is that I don't agree with him. So this question, is he one of the the three greatest fast bowlers of all time, no. Under all eventualities is he the greatest old ball bowler of all time, no. Was he more reliant than most on reverse swing, yes. Was his legacy built primarily on his home performances which were, yes, partially tainted by unprecedentedly biased home umpiring and rampant ball tampering? Yes. During his peak that's being discussed in another thread, of the 22 matches played during those 5 years, 16 were in Pakistan at an average of 12. The other 6 were in England and SL and wickets were taken at 18.

His lower order batting is among the 5 best ever, of the ones who even approaches all time great status as bowlers, only Pollock comes close and controversially Procter, was better. The overrating comes when people start quoting the 50 average over a decade. It's a hollow stat and everyone knows it, he never approached that quality or level. As a bowler between 74 and 88, Subz's preferred tl not mine, his rpi was 27, and even that with a high contributions from down hill skiing. He's a elite no. 8 at this level, but no higher than that. Knott has a higher rpi than he did @ 29 and performed better while batting at no. 7.

There's no inconsistency, he's not a good enough batsman to stake a claim based purely on that, but if additional balance is required, he's the one best suited to do so. He's the best of the available options. He harps on the fact that he would be the choice if Knott is selected, while avoiding the part that he's also the reason he ultimately isn't.

Yeah, everyone forgets that Marshall and Warne already provides better than average and pretty good depth. It's not a glaring weakness.

There's this wonderful article by Gideon Haigh, who speaks to selecting all time XIs which cemented my perception of same, where he simply asks, why choose 4 new ball bowlers when only two will get it, who fields at slip, complimentary batting styles etc etc. Wasim is seen by most as the best old ball bowler ever (Bumrah may soon supercede) who was just as effective if the ball wasn't reversing, and could move old and new ball alike both ways. With a cordon which he's afforded here, I think he's (for now) unquestionably the best option.

Essay long posts are required with him and his cohorts as they like to distort my positions
He still cherry picks, so what can one do.

I'm still awaiting responses with regards to the actual points made earlier.

The crazy thing is that we agree on most points outside of Imran (his childhood hero), slip fielding and Barry.

And when he speaks of bias it crazy considering his decade long crusades against Kallis, Ambrose and others because they're direct challengers to Imran.
@Cipher please note even in interjecting himself in our chat, he picks and chooses what which arguments he responds to.

Anyways I am done with him.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
No problem to argue it this way, as long as domestic/WSC competitions against top quality players are fine to include as a barometer for a players skill & not just tests, and that you consider this with every player if it's brought up. If you were going to disregard the skill of someone like Ranjitsinhji purely because he didn't play enough test cricket but rated Richards that's where I'd find an inconsistency in your argument.


Can you clear the air for subs whether you personally rank Imran or Wasim a better overall bowler?
And if you rank Imran higher as an overall bowler, is the reason you pick Akram instead because you pick Akram's old ball bowling higher? Or is there different reasons?

O'Reilly is rated the 3rd greatest spinner and a possible top 10 bowler of all time based on 19 tests vs England. A rating that's largely based on his first class career. I have no issues with shorter test career sample sizes.

I have them both in the same tier, behind the top 2. There's not separating any of the guys in that tier. But if it were about who's outright the best bowler it would be Steyn, Hadlee or Ambrose, not either of these two.

Not to mention that Wasim dealt with his late career diabetes and West Indian level of catching in the cordon.

I have no issues with my selection.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Look I am fully fine with parting ways from engaging with Kyear.

In fact, I privately messaged him many months ago that we should have a truce regarding debating on Imran. He never responded.

And then he put me recently in ignore mode. Which is also fine, except for the fact that after he did then every second post he was referring to me by name without having to deal with me responding. So he still wanted to talk about me but not talk to me directly.

Tell me, if that happened to you, would you find that a reason to view him a certain way? I don't see him as a good faith poster.
You were placed on ignore because you're aren't a good faith poster, you've deliberately lied, distorted my responses and make racial accusations. You're inherently intellectually dishonest and while most are arguing philosophies, for you it's just about one player and framing everything and every opinion around that.


You've stated that I've said lower order batting is inconsequential, which just isn't true.

What it isn't, is important enough to be the primary criteria or differentiator in terms of selection, be it club, test or AT XIs.

This isn't even about Imran, the only position I've taken exception with is taking batting into consideration with regards to selecting your entire attack, there's no need for it at 10 and 11.

Your entire point is that it's heresy and that there's no justification for me not to select Imran at no 8, and his batting makes him, in you words in this thread, a lock or a need to selection.
Do you not see how ridiculous that is. No one's saying he bad, no one even called him a cheat.

I'm saying, as did almost 70% of voters in this thread that he's not a good enough bowler for me, situationally or otherwise, that even taking his batting into consideration, to make my first team attack.

Please for the love of all that's holy, how is such an affront to you and the gentleman cheering you on.

Have I ever hounded you or anyone in this thread with regards to you not thinking Barry isn't good enough? I've answered questions and made my points, I've not taken it nearly to the extent that you have.

I've noted that for you it's obviously personal, that doesn't mean you have to turn everyone else into the enemy, make up **** and cast accusations.

If I said he wasn't an ATG bowler or cricketer, or top tier all rounder, It would be understandable.

But I've said he isn't in my first team all time, that among all of the bowlers of all time, he doesn't make the top 3, and I've explained why, very clearly in fact.

It's ok to disagree, but you're vilifying. And no one calls you out for it.
 

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