Wisden Cricketers of the Year

[Scallywag]

Only in one match and most of their batsmen were out of form. .

Yes its amazing how quick a player loses form when Warnie bowls.

 

[tooextracool]

Only in one match and most of their batsmen were out of form. He was still the most expensive Australian bowler in the series and the most expensive spinner on either side.

even though its fairly obvious that he was bowling against better players of spin than all the other spinners were bowling to in that series.

 

[tooextracool]

I dont know why people get so hot under the collar about the Wisden player awards

i dont see why people even care. why would anyone want to win an award that a player like trescothick can win.....

 

[Anil]

Yes its amazing how quick a player loses form when Warnie bowls.

doesn't really happen to the indians mate, with them it is mostly the other way around ....

 

[tooextracool]

exactly when warne bowls badly to the indians its because they are good players of spin, but when he actually bowls well its because they were out of form.

 

[a massive zebra]

exactly when warne bowls badly to the indians its because they are good players of spin, but when he actually bowls well its because they were out of form.

No they were actually out of form...

Dravid - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 51.50 career average ^ 6.36
Tendulkar - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 4.20 career average ^ 53.05
Sehwag - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 51.88 career average ^ 4.10
Laxman - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 18.50 career average ^ 24.55
Ganguly - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 34.00 career average ^ 6.90

All averaged less than their career average in the 5 preceding Tests.

 

[a massive zebra]

even though its fairly obvious that he was bowling against better players of spin than all the other spinners were bowling to in that series.

Debatable...

Murali
v Australia 10 515.3 1571 50 6/59 31.42 3.04 61.8 5 1
v India 12 637 1680 51 8/87 32.94 2.63 74.9 3 1

Saqlain
v Australia 8 351.2 1014 30 6/46 33.80 2.88 70.2 1 0
v India 4 230.5 707 25 5/93 28.28 3.06 55.4 4 2

Kaneria
v Australia 5 211.2 804 19 7/188 42.31 3.80 66.7 2 0
v India 5 274.3 847 26 6/150 32.57 3.08 63.3 2 0

Giles
v Australia 2 78.2 299 7 4/101 6/191 42.71 3.81 67.1 0 0
v India 5 234.3 552 11 5/67 50.18 2.35 127.9 1 0

Looks pretty even to me, the Australians score quicker but the Indians are harder to get out, and it is definitely not 'obvious that he was bowling against better players of spin than all the other spinners were bowling to in that series.'

 

[tooextracool]

No they were actually out of form...

Dravid - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 51.50 career average ^ 6.36
Tendulkar - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 4.20 career average ^ 53.05
Sehwag - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 51.88 career average ^ 4.10
Laxman - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 18.50 career average ^ 24.55
Ganguly - in 5 Tests prior to Warne's 6 wicket haul averaged 34.00 career average ^ 6.90

All averaged less than their career average in the 5 preceding Tests.

and could it be because the australian bowlers actually bowled better than what they had faced in the tests prior?

 

[a massive zebra]

and could it be because the australian bowlers actually bowled better than what they had faced in the tests prior?

That period only includes the first two Australia Tests because Warne took 6 in the 3rd.

Fact remains - they were out of form and I was not just saying that because Warne for once did OK against them.

 

[tooextracool]

Debatable...

Murali
v Australia 10 515.3 1571 50 6/59 31.42 3.04 61.8 5 1
v India 12 637 1680 51 8/87 32.94 2.63 74.9 3 1

Saqlain
v Australia 8 351.2 1014 30 6/46 33.80 2.88 70.2 1 0
v India 4 230.5 707 25 5/93 28.28 3.06 55.4 4 2

Kaneria
v Australia 5 211.2 804 19 7/188 42.31 3.80 66.7 2 0
v India 5 274.3 847 26 6/150 32.57 3.08 63.3 2 0

Giles
v Australia 2 78.2 299 7 4/101 6/191 42.71 3.81 67.1 0 0
v India 5 234.3 552 11 5/67 50.18 2.35 127.9 1 0

Looks pretty even to me, the Australians score quicker but the Indians are harder to get out, and it is definitely not 'obvious that he was bowling against better players of spin than all the other spinners were bowling to in that series.'

you seriously must be out of your mind if you think that the aussies are just as good players of spin as the indians.
and obviously those averages will tend to be relatively equal, because bowling in australia or england is not comparable to bowling in the subcontinent. a more accurate comparison would be:
murali vs australia(at home) : 25odd
murali vs india: 33 odd
which suggests more than enough.

 

[tooextracool]

That period only includes the first two Australia Tests because Warne took 6 in the 3rd.

err warne took 6 wickets in the 2nd test.

Fact remains - they were out of form and I was not just saying that because Warne for once did OK against them.

no they were not, tendulkar had been out of form for a while so that is justifiable, unfortunately for you he wasnt even playing in the games that warne did play. it would be ludicrous to suggest that sehwag was out of form given that he was batting as well as we;d ever seen him in that game:scored 155 in that very game. and dravid and laxman were just outdone by good bowling from the aussie attack throughout that series. saurav ganguly was not out of form, he was just his usual mediocre self against a quality bowling attack. no surprise that he got runs in the next 2 series against SA and b'desh either.

 

[aussie]

thats a good point their on Ganguly Tec, he usually fails againts Australia the only time he has actually made runs againts them in test cricket was surprisingly in Australia 2 seasons ago, but he cashed since than was predominantly a batsman dominated series on some of the flatted surfaces you would ever likely to see down under

 

[Anil]

exactly when warne bowls badly to the indians its because they are good players of spin, but when he actually bowls well its because they were out of form.

did i say that? how well warne bowls has been a non-factor against india for the most part...he certainly had his moments but they were few and far between and for a player of his calibre and reputation, it has to be counted as a failure...

 

[tooextracool]

did i say that? how well warne bowls has been a non-factor against india for the most part...he certainly had his moments but they were few and far between and for a player of his calibre and reputation, it has to be counted as a failure...

yes it is, and his record in india has by and large been a failure. but to put his few good performances in india, down to 'poor form' is ludicrous.

 

[Scallywag]

yes it is, and his record in india has by and large been a failure. but to put his few good performances in india, down to 'poor form' is ludicrous.

Murali has a worse record in India.

 

[C_C]

yes it is, and his record in india has by and large been a failure. but to put his few good performances in india, down to 'poor form' is ludicrous.

It is a fact that only two players in IND lineup have been in any sort of form...Dravid and Sehwag. Ganguly, Laxman, Tendulkar etc. have been out of form before the OZ series.


And to be fair to Murali, he hasnt played in IND since 97...thats 8 years or so when he was a far lesser bowler than he has been since.
In anycase,Murali overall has been far better than Warne against IND and also against practically every other team barring pakistan or so.
Warne is a great but Murali is even greater....its like if bradman played today....Tendy/Lara still would be great but would be second best to Bradman. Same case here....
That said, i do find Warne a bit overrated. A large chunk of his reputation is based on records against teams who are really **** poor players of spin- England, South Africa, Pakistan, etc.
As far as test cricket goes, Warne is distinct second to Murali. Period.

 

[aussie]

It is a fact that only two players in IND lineup have been in any sort of form...Dravid and Sehwag. Ganguly, Laxman, Tendulkar etc. have been out of form before the OZ series.


And to be fair to Murali, he hasnt played in IND since 97...thats 8 years or so when he was a far lesser bowler than he has been since.
In anycase,Murali overall has been far better than Warne against IND and also against practically every other team barring pakistan or so.
Warne is a great but Murali is even greater....its like if bradman played today....Tendy/Lara still would be great but would be second best to Bradman. Same case here....
That said, i do find Warne a bit overrated. A large chunk of his reputation is based on records against teams who are really **** poor players of spin- England, South Africa, Pakistan, etc.
As far as test cricket goes, Warne is distinct second to Murali. Period.

no, no CC i disagree i dont think that warne is second best to Murali, well we know his record in India is unflaterring but he failures in 1998 & 2001 was due to the fact that when he played on those tours he wasn't that match fit for eg in 2001 he hadn't played a test match for a while even though he contested the CUB ODI series before & in 1998 he was injured while last year he came over he was fit the indian batsmen most of them were in pretty good form and he bowled pretty well. Going back to the point its tough call between Warne & Murali for me i give warne the edge by a whisker.

other than his perfromances in India Warne has taken wickets in all conditions againts all teams home/away so i disargee with your point that his reputation is based on records againts teams who are just poor players againts spin

 

[tooextracool]

It is a fact that only two players in IND lineup have been in any sort of form...Dravid and Sehwag. Ganguly,

how is someone who had the following averages before
2003-2004 AUS v IND 4 6 0 1 1 144 284 47.33 1 0
2003-2004 PAK v IND 1 1 0 1 0 77 77 77.00 1 0
and after:
2004-2005 IND v SAF 2 2 0 1 0 57 97 48.50 0 0
2004-2005 BAN v IND 2 2 0 2 0 88 159 79.50 0

supposed to be out of form?

Laxman, ,

except if you'd have watched that 31 that he scored in which he dominated the pace bowlers before shane warne came on then you might consider something. laxman's poor form since the aussie series has to do with how shane warne worked him out, more than anything else, and as i said earlier its no surprise that he scored that match winning 60 odd in the final game when shane warne didnt play either.

Tendulkar etc. have been out of form before the OZ series.

he only played one test against tendulkar, and he didnt get him out in that one anyways.

And to be fair to Murali, he hasnt played in IND since 97...thats 8 years or so when he was a far lesser bowler than he has been since.
In anycase,Murali overall has been far better than Warne against IND and also against practically every other team barring pakistan or so.
Warne is a great but Murali is even greater....its like if bradman played today....Tendy/Lara still would be great but would be second best to Bradman. Same case here....
That said, i do find Warne a bit overrated. A large chunk of his reputation is based on records against teams who are really **** poor players of spin- England, South Africa, Pakistan, etc.
As far as test cricket goes, Warne is distinct second to Murali. Period.

most of which is all garbage.

 

[Scallywag]

That said, i do find Warne a bit overrated. A large chunk of his reputation is based on records against teams who are really **** poor players of spin- England, South Africa, Pakistan, etc.
As far as test cricket goes, Warne is distinct second to Murali. Period.

And Warnie has 6 wickets against Zim and Bangers while Murali has 107 wickets against Zim and Bangers. So playing Zim and Bangers rates higher than England, SA and Pakistan.

 

[Scallywag]

That said, i do find Warne a bit overrated. A large chunk of his reputation is based on records against teams who are really **** poor players of spin- England, South Africa, Pakistan, etc.
As far as test cricket goes, Warne is distinct second to Murali. Period.

Also C_C against South Africa and Pakistan Warne has a better average than Murali but you say they are weak against spin. So if thats the case then, if Murali is the better spinner shouldent he have better averages than Warne against the teams who are poor against spin.