Who's Done the Most Damage?

[sayon basak]

No I do, which is why I don't blindly worship averages the way you do.

Kudos.

Didn't you use to rate Curtly Ambrose higher? Pretty sure you changed sides after I joined CW. All of those cricket watching was for what then? Watching cricket couldn't lead you to the right path, that you needed to change your opinion long after their playing days?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Btw, post 94, Rose averages 26.9 in matches with Ambrose and Dillon played in 5 grand total

 

[capt_Luffy]

I've given plenty in this thread. Which you ignore. It's easy to attack strawmans but I would advise against it.

I literally haven't. Saying they had comparable supports over career is one of the biggest strawman ever.

 

[subshakerz]

Right

so basically if he had low support cast like Lillee his whole career, his first half WPI would increase and his second half would either maybe Increase/stay stagnant, so with Lillee's support the gap minimises.

With Lillees generally good level of support, I argue first half more WPI would balance out with even lesser in second half.

 

[Johan]

With Lillees generally good level of support, I argue first half more WPI would balance out with even lesser in second half.

Ambrose's second half support cast > Lillee's general support cast. Ambrose's first half support cast >>> Lillee's general support cast.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Post 94:

Bishop: 22m, 71@27.3
Benjamin: 20m, 61@32
Rose: 16m, 50@26.9
King: 9m, 24@24.9

McLean: 11m, 27@37
Benjamin: 10m, 22@40


And ofcourse:

Walsh: 53m, 246@22.4


These are all the frontline bowlers with 20 wickets post 94 in Ambrose's games. Such horrible support, especially Given Walsh played every game.

 

[subshakerz]

Didn't you use yo rate Curtly Ambrose higher? Pretty sure you changed sides after I joined CW. All of those cricket watching was for what then? Watching cricket couldn't lead you to the right path, that you needed to change your opinion long after their playing days?

Yes I used to rate him higher than Steyn.

Then I switched because I realised that even though I think control level of Ambrose was great, end of the day Steyn is just taking more wickets on average, all factors accounted for, and in more places.

I began to question Ambroses actual match impact which I used to assume was similar to McGrath but realises in his second half was not nearly so.

My memory had the highlights of Ambrose but upon further recollection I remember how despite Walsh and Ambrose the WI were often beaten quite badly and I realised Ambrose being tidy didn't stem that tide. Him just not being smashed made it look as if he bowled really well.

 

[subshakerz]

Ambrose's second half support cast > Lillee's general support cast.

We essentially disagree here.

 

[sayon basak]

We essentially disagree here.

Here's the wicket distribution in Ambrose's matches:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...er_involve=1884;template=results;type=bowling

Here's Lillee's:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...er_involve=1369;template=results;type=bowling

Looks pretty clear to me.

 

[Johan]

We essentially disagree here.

sure, I'll take Second half Walsh over any bowler Lillee shared wickets with, Second half Walsh was taking 2.44 WPI and averaging 23.

 

[capt_Luffy]

With Lillee:

Thomson: 26m, 98@28.3
Walker: 20m, 82@29
Yardley: 13m, 73@24
Mallet: 22m, 66@34
Aldermann: 27m, 64@27
Pascoe: 11m, 51@25.6
Lawson: 11m, 46@25.9
Gilmore: 11m, 37@26
Massie: 6m, 31@21
Dymock: 9m, 30@27
Hogg: 13m, 30@32.7
Dymock: 11m, 29@33.7

 

[sayon basak]

Yes I used to rate him higher than Steyn.

Then I switched because I realised that even though I think control level of Ambrose was great, end of the day Steyn is just taking more wickets on average, all factors accounted for, and in more places.

I began to question Ambroses actual match impact which I used to assume was similar to McGrath but realises in his second half was not nearly so.

My memory had the highlights of Ambrose but upon further recollection I remember how despite Walsh and Ambrose the WI were often beaten quite badly and I realised Ambrose being tidy didn't stem that tide. Him just not being smashed made it look as if he bowled really well.

I do not care, as that's not the point. Luffy called your stance wrong, and you shamed him for not watching 90's WI. Don't you think it's a bit ironic, as even you were tricked by Ambrose's average after all those years of watching cricket?

 

[subshakerz]

Post 94:

Bishop: 22m, 71@27.3
Benjamin: 20m, 61@32
Rose: 16m, 50@26.9
King: 9m, 24@24.9

McLean: 11m, 27@37
Benjamin: 10m, 22@40


And ofcourse:

Walsh: 53m, 246@22.4


These are all the frontline bowlers with 20 wickets post 94 in Ambrose's games. Such horrible support, especially Given Walsh played every game.

Lol give their overall careers in that period without minnows, not just games where they are picking up for Ambrose, and see how good those bowlers really were. Walsh aside.

And really? McClean?

 

[subshakerz]

I do not care, as that's not the point. Luffy called your stance wrong, and you shamed him for not watching 90's WI. Don't you think it's a bit ironic, as even you were tricked by Ambrose's average after all those years of watching cricket?

Well it goes both ways because it's my memory of watching him that also caused me to change my mind.

 

[subshakerz]

Here's the wicket distribution in Ambrose's matches:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...er_involve=1884;template=results;type=bowling

Here's Lillee's:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...er_involve=1369;template=results;type=bowling

Looks pretty clear to me.

Why are you including foreign bowlers?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Side by side comparison:

Lillee:

Sub 22: 1
Sub 25: 1
Sub 30: 7
Sub 35: 3

Ambrose:

Sub 22: 1
Sub 25: 2
Sub 30: 2
Sub 35: 0
35+: 2 (but both with the least wickets)

+ Courtney Walsh averaging 22 taking nearly 250 wickets (which is more than him)

 

[capt_Luffy]

Lol give their overall careers in that period without minnows, not just games where they are picking up for Ambrose, and see how good those bowlers really were. Walsh aside.

And really? McClean?

I would rather not include McLean, but these were his stats.
None of the teams Ambrose played were worse than Lillee's NZ. Most of the bowler's average goes over 30 on removing them as well.

 

[subshakerz]

Side by side comparison:

Lillee:

Sub 22: 1
Sub 25: 1
Sub 30: 7
Sub 35: 3

Ambrose:

Sub 22: 1
Sub 25: 2
Sub 30: 2
Sub 35: 0
35+: 2 (but both with the least wickets)

+ Courtney Walsh averaging 22 taking nearly 250 wickets (which is more than him)

Is that overall?.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Is that overall?.

Lillee overall Ambrose post 94, both min 20 wickets

 

[subshakerz]

I would rather not include McLean, but these were his stats.
None of the teams Ambrose played were worse than Lillee's NZ. Most of the bowler's average goes over 30 on removing them as well.

Zimbabwe were but anyways we don't have to debate finer points. Include them and the WI support is poorer and frankly having watched them it was clear they weren't that good.

Rose had some nice spells but was very inconsistent. Dillon steady but not penetrative enough. Bishop just faded away.