Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, me too. I'd prefer Ambrose up the order. Not opening if possible - four would honestly be my preferred choice in the current climate - but I also don't see anyone who'd bat better at seven than him.
-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
who should be kicked out of England ODI team?
- Thread starter Mard
- Start date
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
I didn't realise the extent of the stats tbh, just had a whim that he'd performed well at 5 in the past. Haven't done anything extensive on statsguru though, I'm sure you will do that for us mind
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Who opens the batting? With Flintoff in the team, Wright's bowling becomes a non-issue and I doubt he'll be selected purely for his batting after his recent failures.
On merit it should probably be Cook and Bell, but as many have said already, Cook opening the batting in ODIs at the moment could hamper his career in the same way it did Strauss's.
Just looking at the FP stats for the season, Benning has done decently without really being excellent, which sums up his career to date really. In reality Strauss seems to be next in line which would be an even worse choice than Cook.
Incidentally, Afzaal and Trott averaging over 50 again...
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
He's never played an ODI. He was selected in the squad and it was all but set in stone he'd bat #3 - but he failed in two Twenty20 International games in the lead in to the series whilst Shah succeeded and that was the end of him. Absolutely ridiculous stuff.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Yeah, I was going to say, he disappeared after two T20 failures, which is pretty silly. Not untypical of the way we select our limited overs sides really. Thankfully the reverse hasn't happened too often with the Test side...yet. The media may have been clamouring for KP on the back of his ODI performances, but his record spoke for itself by then (though I guess he wouldn't have played the Ashes had he not burst onto the scene in such style in 04/05).
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
The fact neither Afzaal nor Trott have played so much as a single ODI while the countless jokers who we've had the last 7 years have is ridiculous, but I've long since given-up being surprised.
Both are better OD batsmen than Collingwood, Shah and Bopara, the current incumbants, but I don't ever expect either to play ahead of any of these three.
Both are better OD batsmen than Collingwood, Shah and Bopara, the current incumbants, but I don't ever expect either to play ahead of any of these three.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Aye, Benning is that rare thing - an English opener\pinch-hitter who isn't utterly crap. He, like Loye, would certainly be worth a try.
Why it is that England have persisted with picking crap pinch-hitters who've had no or negligable success (Jones, Prior, Mustard, Wright to name a few) when there have been two who've had some amount of it (Loye, Benning) is also beyond me, but also not terribly surprising.
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
Can't help thinking you're overstating Benning's case by more than a tad. His successes at Surrey have been very, very few & far between.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Still been a damn sight more regular than those of Jones at Kent (which amounts to zero - he was given the ODI opening role despite not even having been tried there at domestic level), Prior at Sussex, Mustard at Durham or Wright at Sussex.
If you're going to insist on a pinch-hitter, moderate > utterly rubbish.
If you're going to insist on a pinch-hitter, moderate > utterly rubbish.
Perm
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Personally I feel people are being much too harsh on Ian Bell, Alistair Cook and Ravi Bopara. They may not be world-beaters but all three of them have potential to be good ODI batsmen.
Ravi Bopara averages over 40 for Essex in limited overs cricket, has a good strike rate and even an unbeaten double-century. Surely that means he is worth selecting to play ODI cricket? All 3 of his List A centuries have come at a run a ball, or better, and he's been doing all of this batting in the top order. So what do England do when they select him? Chuck him down at #7 and play him as an all-rounder, hoping he can succeed. During his limited time in international cricket we've seen that he does have the right temperament and can play some very good shots, now it's just a matter of the selectors have faith in him and giving him chances to bat in the top order. If they do this then I beleive Bopara can be a good ODI batsman, coupled with his bowling and fielding, England will have a good player.
Bell and Cook have both scored plenty of runs for Warwickshire and Essex at domestic level, have shone glimpses of their potential at ODI level and through their Test exploits we can establish that they are classy batsmen. Again, faith needs to be placed in them. After every series we hear a chorus of cries from English fans about who should be dropped, who needs to be picked and why their team aren't winning. I reckon a little bit more confidence for Bell and Cook, who are both confidence players, is all that is needed. Give them a decent run and then analyse their performances. Keep in mind that if you do drop them, players who have no experience at ODI level will probably replace them and they may not be successful straight away.
Ravi Bopara averages over 40 for Essex in limited overs cricket, has a good strike rate and even an unbeaten double-century. Surely that means he is worth selecting to play ODI cricket? All 3 of his List A centuries have come at a run a ball, or better, and he's been doing all of this batting in the top order. So what do England do when they select him? Chuck him down at #7 and play him as an all-rounder, hoping he can succeed. During his limited time in international cricket we've seen that he does have the right temperament and can play some very good shots, now it's just a matter of the selectors have faith in him and giving him chances to bat in the top order. If they do this then I beleive Bopara can be a good ODI batsman, coupled with his bowling and fielding, England will have a good player.
Bell and Cook have both scored plenty of runs for Warwickshire and Essex at domestic level, have shone glimpses of their potential at ODI level and through their Test exploits we can establish that they are classy batsmen. Again, faith needs to be placed in them. After every series we hear a chorus of cries from English fans about who should be dropped, who needs to be picked and why their team aren't winning. I reckon a little bit more confidence for Bell and Cook, who are both confidence players, is all that is needed. Give them a decent run and then analyse their performances. Keep in mind that if you do drop them, players who have no experience at ODI level will probably replace them and they may not be successful straight away.
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
I suspect that Mustard's one good season is more than Benning has ever managed.
Wright and Benning are probably about equal in terms of very occasionally doing anything of note.
Prior is certainly a way better batsman than Benning - couldn't tell you about his List A record though.
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
1. Ed Joyce
2. Ian Bell
3. Kevin Pietersen
4. Usman Afzaal/Johnathan Trott
5. Paul Collingwood
6. Andrew Flintoff
7. James Foster+
8. Graeme Swann
9. Stuart Broad
10. Ryan Sidebottom
11. Jon Lewis/Jimmy Anderson/Dimi (batting at 7 with everyone else shifting down a spot).
Had typed up a long post earlier explaining some particular selections there but then the browser crashed and I cbf typing it again. Will do so if anyone requests it.
2. Ian Bell
3. Kevin Pietersen
4. Usman Afzaal/Johnathan Trott
5. Paul Collingwood
6. Andrew Flintoff
7. James Foster+
8. Graeme Swann
9. Stuart Broad
10. Ryan Sidebottom
11. Jon Lewis/Jimmy Anderson/Dimi (batting at 7 with everyone else shifting down a spot).
Had typed up a long post earlier explaining some particular selections there but then the browser crashed and I cbf typing it again. Will do so if anyone requests it.
Flem274*
123/5
I would have picked roundabout that team.
Cook
Bell
KP
Afzaal/Trott
Collingwood
Flintoff
Ambrose/Foster
Mascarenhas
Swann
Broad
Sidebottom
Bats down to 11, 6 possible bowlers, 2 proven world class players and all are promising/already very good players.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Would love to hear the rationale behind Ed Joyce opening the batting.
Flem274*
123/5
A hundred against Australia would come into it. Joyce>>>>>>>>Wright as an opener, though he is prefferable in the middle order where he has a greater chance of success imo. Joyce shouldn't be discarded as an option yet.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Thanks to a drop from Shaun Tait.
Joyce has done nothing of note in ODIs at the top of the order. Nothing. He's never had any pretensions as an opener, has no obvious qualities that lend him to the role, and should never, ever have been remotely considered to open the batting.
More so than ever given how potentially good he is in the middle-order.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Thing is, though, Bell's already had the decent run. And some. He's played constantly since the summer of 2006, without being dropped once. And his performances, aside from that India series in 2007, have been decidedly mediocre. Not out-and-out poor, but he's flattered to deceive often and out-and-out failed more than once.
Cook is a different case - if I could feel safely assured that it'd not impact upon his Test play, I'd want Cook to have a long stint in the ODI side. It's only the thought that he'll do a Strauss that holds me back there.
As I said - Bopara will probably be picked for the next series against South Africa, and his play so far (at international and domestic level) merits it, just about. I think you're overplaying his domestic record a little, though. That double-century makes quite a big impact.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Well Prior's one-day record is poor, abysmal if you take out 2004 and 2005 to boot.
As for Benning, I can't fathom how he could be said to be remotely close to being as poor as Wright or Mustard. Since 2005, he's averaged 38.64 in one-day cricket (including 40-over crap). Admittedly, his performances in 2005 and 2007 weren't the sort of stuff that screams "international material" but his 2006 was better than anything Prior has ever managed so far (and remember, Prior was picked as a specialist batsman initially in 2005/06, and only later in 2007 as a wicketkeeper). It's also as good as Mustard's 2007, and better than anything Wright has ever managed by a massive margin.
Benning might or might not make a ODI-standard pinch-hitter - he's certainly not as good as Loye is. But he's far more worth a go than even other-role-players (ie, Wright who can bowl a bit and Prior and Mustard who keep) if you're looking for said pinch-hitters.