Who has a better test bowling attack ?

[tooextracool]

The whole point is there is no such thing as a wicket that doesn't turn for a wristspinner.
The beauty of wristspinners is they can turn it on anything and that is why exceptionally accurate wristspinners like Warne and Murali have been so phenominally successful just about everywhere they've played. Just about - not absolutely.

no they can only turn it a bit more than what a finger spinner would turn it on a non turner...bar murali of course who can turn it significantly on any wicket, but hes shouldnt be classified as a wrist spinner at all.

If you had watched that South Africa-Sri Lanka series of 2000\01 properly you would see that the Sri Lankan batsmen batted shockingly virtually throughout the series (with the exception of Sangakkara) against both fast-medium and slow.

which is why he had sangakkara out twice in 4 innings......

No, the whole attack bowled very poorly then - except Pollock.
Ntini, Nel and Kallis were all woefully sub-par, for no good reason.
So why should Klusener be singled-out?

because he was the one who was singled out to have improved since his last test series. ntini's failure wasnt much of a surprise because hes generally never been effective in flat conditions against quality batting lineups and nel just didnt bowl half as well as he did in the previous series against the WI.

 

[Tom Halsey]

no but pace made him a far more effective and penetrating bowler. just like it did to darren gough.

True.

But IMO Gough was also less effective on his return because he appeared to have lost his outswinger, aswell as a loss of pace.

 

[Tom Halsey]

no they can only turn it a bit more than what a finger spinner would turn it on a non turner...bar murali of course who can turn it significantly on any wicket, but hes shouldnt be classified as a wrist spinner at all.

Yes, he should.

Richard is slightly wrong - not all wrist spinners turn it on just about anything - good ones do.

 

[tooextracool]

Richard is slightly wrong - not all wrist spinners turn it on just about anything - good ones do.

you really think so?
i dont.....the reason why warne was better than every other leg spinner was not because he turned it more but because he was capable of using flight and drift and didnt need turn from the pitch to help him out.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Yes, he was - when did I ever deny it? Try reading, it helps occasionally.

 

[tooextracool]

umm you suggested that warne turns the ball more than other wrist spinners......

 

[Richard]

Hmm, world class International Quick who has coached some of the recent top bowlers at his academy or English schoolboy?

Whose opinion is more valid I wonder?

Well you can strike the "schoolboy" part out, for starters.
Secondly, have I ever denied that Lillee is just a little likely to be a better coach than I am?
Thirdly, when have I actually mentioned anything suggesting that in this post.
All I actually said was Harmison did not bowl well in Australia. And only a complete fool would deny that.

 

[Richard]

no but pace made him a far more effective and penetrating bowler. just like it did to darren gough.

Yes, I know, but you don't need it to maintain your penetration - it can just turn good into great.

 

[Swervy]

Well you can strike the schoolboy, for starters.

do we have to form a queue??? (only kidding)

 

[Richard]

no mention of umar gul, he did very well against india in the second test.

also mansoor amjad( under 19 leggie ) and mohammed irshad will come through sooner or later.

mohammed irshads runup is too long for anyones liking and hes all over the place from what i heard. very fast though, well over 90mph.

ali imran pasha is another who looks promising.

Umar Gul, Mohammed Sami, Shoaib Akhtar and Danish Kaneria is the most likely attack pakistan will go with in the near future.

mohammed irshad, mansoor amjad, shabbir ahmed and ali imran pasha as reserves for now.

Really, anyone who would prefer Mohammad Sami in their team to Shabbir Ahmed Khan is extraordinarily short-sighted.
Shabbir is clearly an infinately better bowler.
Umar Gul, to be fair, did bowl well in the Second India Test but equally he bowled very poorly against South Africa and I don't think we can set much stall by his figures against Bangladesh.
Until Mohammad Irshad even comes close to international reckoning (and if he's not yet up to it I really hope he doesn't) he can't really be talked about as in this picture.
Never heard of this Mansoor Amjad, 't'would be excellent indeed if there were to be a second promising heir-to-the-Mushtaq-Ahmed-throne.

 

[Richard]

do we have to form a queue??? (only kidding)

A queue for what?

 

[Swervy]

A queue for what?

it was a poor attempt at humour (strike the schoolboy, strike as in hit, the schoolboy as in you according to Marc)...as I say...very poor

 

[Richard]

no they can only turn it a bit more than what a finger spinner would turn it on a non turner...bar murali of course who can turn it significantly on any wicket, but hes shouldnt be classified as a wrist spinner at all.

So what the hell should he be classified as, then? A fingerspinner? Don't be so stupid.
If he's not a wristspinner he's not anything. Just because he's not an orthodox wristspinner doesn't mean he's not one.
Any wristspinner is capable of spinning the ball considerably more than a fingerspinner - Kumble doesn't, but he too is not an orthodox bowler. Warne, Murali, Mushtaq Ahmed, Kaneria, even wayward excuses like MacGill - they all spin it so much that they can turn it dangerously anywhere.
The amount of spin that can be imparted by a fingerspinner makes them dangerous only in certain conditions. However, the fact that it is much easier to bowl accurately when bowling fingerspin means that a bowler like Saqlain, Harbhajan or Giles is a much better pick in the right conditions than pie-chuckers like MacGill.

which is why he had sangakkara out twice in 4 innings......

That had nothing to do with it - no-one scored many runs except Sangakkara. Even if he did fall into the trap of being dismissed by Boje too, he still scored some runs.

because he was the one who was singled out to have improved since his last test series. ntini's failure wasnt much of a surprise because hes generally never been effective in flat conditions against quality batting lineups and nel just didnt bowl half as well as he did in the previous series against the WI.

Neither Ntini, Nel, Kallis nor Klusener were effective throughout the West Indies series - all had poor games in the final two, when West Indies hammered it everywhere.
And it was equally inexplicable as the New Zealand series. Ntini has bowled very well plenty of times on flat wickets in ODIs - his accuracy improved markedly in the 2000\01 season and he's been a fixture just about ever since.
However, there were lots of games in a row where they all sprayed it all over everywhere and let batting, sometimes batting not of the highest quality, score significantly quick runs.

 

[Richard]

it was a poor attempt at humour (strike the schoolboy, strike as in hit, the schoolboy as in you according to Marc)...as I say...very poor

I did get it, you know.
As demonstrated by the at the foot of my post.
And Now I Think I'll Edit The Original Post Just To Make It Look Even More Stupid.
Eh, eh, eh.

 

[Richard]

you really think so?
i dont.....the reason why warne was better than every other leg spinner was not because he turned it more but because he was capable of using flight and drift and didnt need turn from the pitch to help him out.

No, he turned it a lot and used loop and drift thoroughly effectively. Plenty of wristspinners do such.
What sets Abdul Qadir, Warne, Murali and Mushtaq apart is their accuracy, nothing else. A standard of accuracy seldom achieved by wristspinners.

 

[Tom Halsey]

umm you suggested that warne turns the ball more than other wrist spinners......

Which he does - when he gives it his big tweak. But I never denied that he also gets more drift than others.

 

[tooextracool]

No, he turned it a lot and used loop and drift thoroughly effectively. Plenty of wristspinners do such.

the only times he turned it a lot where on surfaces that offered turn.....and none of those other wrist spinners in that list used drift and loop as well as shane warne did.

 

[Tom Halsey]

the only times he turned it a lot where on surfaces that offered turn.....and none of those other wrist spinners in that list used drift and loop as well as shane warne did.

What rubbish, he can turn it on anything if he wants to.

Early on in his career, he turned it everywhere he played, he just gave everything a big tweak. Gradually, he's become a more clever bowler, and doesn't turn it as much as he used to, but that's because he doesn't want to. He still rips the odd ball here and there though.

 

[Muddaser]

mansoor amjad is the under 19 leggie, in the mould of shane warne.

im sure indian fans saw him in the semi final.

bowled a great wrong un to one of their batsmen.

currently in pakistan A team and is in the probables for the holland tri series.

mohammed irshad is very fast but he is all over the place. i doubt we'll see him in the near future.

for now its shabbir ahmed, umar gul, mohammed sami, shoaib akhtar, danish kaneria and mansoor amjad very soon.

 

[tooextracool]

So what the hell should he be classified as, then? A fingerspinner? Don't be so stupid.
If he's not a wristspinner he's not anything. Just because he's not an orthodox wristspinner doesn't mean he's not one.

actually its pretty much what you consider kumble to be.....besides hes an anomaly(heres where it actually makes sense) because as i said there will probably never be anyone allowed to bowl with a remotely similar action.

The amount of spin that can be imparted by a fingerspinner makes them dangerous only in certain conditions. However, the fact that it is much easier to bowl accurately when bowling fingerspin means that a bowler like Saqlain, Harbhajan or Giles is a much better pick in the right conditions than pie-chuckers like MacGill.

nope wrist spinners dont turn it dangerously in non turning conditions....definetly not enough to beat the bat.

That had nothing to do with it - no-one scored many runs except Sangakkara. Even if he did fall into the trap of being dismissed by Boje too, he still scored some runs.

well if these useless finger spinners have the knack of getting out quality in form batsman in unfavourable conditions then it must say something!

Neither Ntini, Nel, Kallis nor Klusener were effective throughout the West Indies series - all had poor games in the final two, when West Indies hammered it everywhere.
And it was equally inexplicable as the New Zealand series. Ntini has bowled very well plenty of times on flat wickets in ODIs - his accuracy improved markedly in the 2000\01 season and he's been a fixture just about ever since.
However, there were lots of games in a row where they all sprayed it all over everywhere and let batting, sometimes batting not of the highest quality, score significantly quick runs.

rubbish the last 2 ODIs were on flat tracks which is why they all got caned out of the park. ntini is generally a very good ODI bowler but he isnt half as decent a test bowler on flat tracks. and from what i saw from klusener today it looks like hes gotten worse.