Which player would you select in your average side?

[subshakerz]

a team with adequate batting and low seam bowling stocks, would take Hadlee as that would give them more balance, an example of such a team would be current England.

a team with adequate seam bowling reserves but low batting stocks, would take Sobers as he'd relevantly strengthen both ends, an example of that would be current South Africa or New Zealand.

You are mistaking team balance with the true value of an ATG bowler.

Current SA or NZ still win more games with Hadlee I reckon.

I don't reckon their batting stocks are much worse than NZ in the 80s who became a top tier side.

 

[Johan]

You are mistaking team balance with the true value of an ATG bowler.

Current SA or NZ still win more games with Hadlee I reckon.

I don't reckon their batting stocks are much worse than NZ in the 80s who became a top tier side.

mhm, and I don't reckon 2021 England's bowling stocks were much worse than 1960s West Indies who became a top tier side with Sobers.

 

[Coronis]

Current teams

Would benefit more from Sobers

Australia
South Africa
India
West Indies
Afghanistan

Would benefit more from Hadlee

England
New Zealand
Sri Lanka
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Zimbabwe
Ireland

NZ is kind of a guess tbh.

 

[subshakerz]

Current teams

Would benefit more from Sobers

Australia
South Africa
India
West Indies
Afghanistan

Would benefit more from Hadlee

England
New Zealand
Sri Lanka
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Zimbabwe
Ireland

NZ is kind of a guess tbh.

Lol all of them are benefitting more with Hadlee. An ATG bowler wins you games that an ATG bat does not. Even if you have worldclass bowling stocks already, you are just enhanced to the point where you overtake opposition.

You give Aus Hadlee on top of Cummins and you become unbeatable and suddenly a genuine threat even in India. You win the 2023 Ashes as Cummins doesn't need to take all the bowling stress in the last three tests.

You give India Hadlee and they win the last series in Australia quite comfortably, they were already competing with crap batting. Bumrah doesn't need to worry about break down.

You give SA Hadlee and they win at least one series in SC and at least one of England and Aus if not both.

It's really simplistic logic to just look at a team roster and want balance in exchange for being lethal.

 

[subshakerz]

mhm, and I don't reckon 2021 England's bowling stocks were much worse than 1960s West Indies who became a top tier side with Sobers.

60s bowling of WI is better than 80s batting of NZ IMO.

 

[Johan]

The Bowler bias is getting out of hand atp

 

[Coronis]

Lol all of them are benefitting more with Hadlee. An ATG bowler wins you games that an ATG bat does not. Even if you have worldclass bowling stocks already, you are just enhanced to the point where you overtake opposition.

You give Aus Hadlee on top of Cummins and you become unbeatable and suddenly a genuine threat even in India. You win the 2023 Ashes as Cummins doesn't need to take all the bowling stress in the last three tests.

You give India Hadlee and they win the last series in Australia quite comfortably, they were already competing with crap batting. Bumrah doesn't need to break down.

You give SA Hadlee and they win at least one series in SC and at least one of England and Aus if not both.

It's really simplistic logic to just look at a team roster and want balance in exchange for being lethal.

Its really simplistic logic to say nah bowlers are better and discount any other opinion.

 

[subshakerz]

Its really simplistic logic to say nah bowlers are better and discount any other opinion.

I'm not discounting. I am looking at Hadlees record and seeing how it enhances existing teams. Obviously so does Sobers but it's more speculative how the teams do.

You cant say with the same confidence Aus win the last Ashes or India win the last BGT with Sobers than Hadlee.

To be fair, there are some series where I can think Sobers might be more useful when it was collective batting struggles, like India losing to NZ at home. But I think there are more circumstances when Hadlee will translate into more series wins. Strong teams become unbeatable, weak teams become competitive with an ATG bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

The Bowler bias is getting out of hand atp

It's not bias with Hadlee who has a good case for being the best pacer ever, and since he can bat it also handles the AR case for Sobers, tho as mentioned he is a better player.

Perhaps just demonstrate how an existing side benefits more from Sobers practically speaking.

 

[Johan]

Perhaps just demonstrate how an existing side benefits more from Sobers practically speaking.

Give India Sobers in Australia and they win the series pretty comfortably

 

[subshakerz]

Give India Sobers in Australia and they win the series pretty comfortably

Ok but not as comfortably as if you have Hadlee. Can you imagine facing both Bumrah in top gear and Hadlee opening the bowling? Australia struggle to make 300 even once in the series. India win the last test even if Bumrah breaks down, which he likely will not since he doesn't need to take as much bowling load. Plus Hadlee gives them the lower order batting they needed too.

 

[Coronis]

I'm not discounting. I am looking at Hadlees record and seeing how it enhances existing teams. Obviously so does Sobers but it's more speculative how the teams do.

You cant say with the same confidence Aus win the last Ashes or India win the last BGT with Sobers than Hadlee.

To be fair, there are some series where I can think Sobers might be more useful when it was collective batting struggles, like India losing to NZ at home. But I think there are more circumstances when Hadlee will translate into more series wins. Strong teams become unbeatable, weak teams become competitive with an ATG bowler.

Yes, yes I can. I’m not sure if you watched either series if you disagree.

 

[Johan]

South Africa also wins 2022 England Series pretty comfortably with Sobers.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, yes I can. I’m not sure if you watched either series if you disagree.

I am saying both cases their chances are better, but if you watch the series, chances are better with adding an ATG pacer.

 

[shortpitched713]

With Hadlee in the 80s, NZ were a top tier team.

Hadlee is far above "star" quality. Someone like Mohammed Asif or Rangana Herath is at a level of being in the very top players in their role at a given time. Hadlee is one of the ATGs, so can skew things even further beyond.