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Was SF barnes a spin bowler or pace bowler?

Was SF Barnes a spin bowler or pace bowler


  • Total voters
    14

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Don't be pedantic.

You've seen him bowl and have a literal grasp on what you've seen. He was a genuine fast bowler who could be elevated to express.

There's not a single person alive who've seen Barnes bowl and what little footage there is of him, it's a little more than off spin.

If you want to pretend there's no difference between the two that's entirely on you.

No one has ever said they should be excluded from cricketing conversations, but comparing them to more contemporary, or even cricketers from the 30's who we've actually seen is neigh on impossible.
My eyes are not high level speed guns, I can't calculate the speed of a bowler by seeing it, I reckon the pace has to be 140+ based on pace of modern bowlers, how batsmen react to Marshall's pace and how he was generally classified, Go outside this forum and you'd find quite a few people claiming cricketers in 1980s didn't even hit 140~

moreover, I've never played Cricket on a first class level and have zero credibility to judge top level Cricket, I apologise but a grainy low quality YouTube video of Dennis Lillee doesn't make you an expert on the matter of how he'd perform in the modern competition.

what little footage there is of him is literally as an 80 year old, but we have his statistics and peer reputation to go by and it's absolutely top tier, Interpretation of footage can be subjective.

Anyway, we don't need to see a Cricketer to compare them to anyone else, for example there is minimal footage of the Three Ws, at the end all that matters is the amount of runs you make and the amount of wickets you take. For example, you rate Clyde Walcott, can you link me a single video of him playing a long knock?
 
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Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Botham became a medium pace trundler later on in his career. He was a genuine pace bowler for the first few years though. Certainly a fair bit quicker than Bedser, Statham or Tate.

Oh Yeah definitely quick for first few years

I was more thinking of mid 80s Botham, this version


Trevor Bailey who saw both reckoned Bedser and Botham were a similar pace but Bedser was quicker off the pitch

Alec surged up the wicket, not especially quickly, but so strongly that it would have taken an anti-tank gun to stop him reaching his classical action.... a model for any young bowler. Everything was correct, arms, shoulders, body and feet, with his right foot coming down behind and parallel to the bowling crease and his left foot pointing to fine leg before he swiveled as he released the ball. Although these characteristics suggested an away-swinger, curiously Alec's stock delivery was the in-swinger, which dipped in very late and brought him numerous victims, either 'bowled through the gate' as they tried to drive him through the covers or caught at backward short leg usually off an inside edge.

Although Alec was not fast, about Botham's pace, he did come of the pitch quicker than one expected because of his fine body action and perfect timing. Consequently a batsman after a long innings against him would have a bruised right hand as a result of the constant jarring from the bat handle after the ball hit the blade.

He wanted the wicket keeper standing up to the stumps, not back as even medium pacers do today, and this meant that he never had to strain for extra pace. It also provided with an extra aiming mark and hemmed in the batman. He was fortunate in having the assistance of two high quality keepers in Evans for England and McIntyre for Surrey. One of the great sights of cricket was to see one of them taking Alec on a pitch that was giving some help, with the ball cutting off the seam and frequently bouncing shoulder high.


also, notice how Bailey claims you needed very high level keepers to keep to Alec Bedser to the stumps, but just the last series we saw Jamie Smith (terrible keeper) keep to Chris Woakes right up to the stumps, goes on to tell you whose balls came quicker and had better velocity at the batsmen's end.
 

Randomfan

U19 Captain
There are different accounts, so not sure but while searching,

"Barnes considered himself essentially a spin bowler as he bowled both the off-break and the Leg-break, but at a fast pace" - Arlott on Cricket, p. 16

If he saw himself as spinner then he was a spinner with a faster pace for me.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
There are different accounts, so not sure but while searching,

"Barnes considered himself essentially a spin bowler as he bowled both the off-break and the Leg-break, but at a fast pace" - Arlott on Cricket, p. 16

If he saw himself as spinner then he was a spinner with a faster pace for me.
That account is totally based on him being jealous of Tate getting praised post his ATG Ashes and bragging about how he spun the ball much more. In his playing days there wasn't any mystery about his bowling style, he was a medium pacer.
 

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
That's not really true, the truth is that the distinction "spinner" or "fast bowler" didn't actually exist back then, the general distinction was Slow bowler, Medium bowler and Fast bowler. a slow bowler was a Hedley Verity, a Medium howler was a Sydney Barnes and a Fast bowler was a Harold Larwood.

The term "break" or "spin" was used for any and all deviation off the pitch, when a pacer did it, it was called cut but both the term spin and break were completely respectable for medium pacers, this is why there is such confusion because the term "spin" is used entirely by modern fans and Cricketers for the slow style of bowling but back then, "spin" or "break" or "cut" all meant the same thing, deviation from the pitch

Applying modern distinction is generally hard but his "breaks" were cuts. though Cut and Wrist spin are identical, just one has more rip to it and other relies on seam.

"Barnes' "leg-break" was "cut rather than spun". – Sir Pelham Warner, Barnes' Captain

"I also had the experience of facing Sydney Barnes when I was in the Yorkshire Second XI and he was still playing for Staffordshire in his late fifties. I made enough runs to understand why many will have it that he was the greatest bowler of all time. Even then he cut and swung the ball and used the crease brilliantly. Before he stripped to play, he used so many bandages and elastic supports that he might have been a mobile Egyptian mummy, and when he retired in 1934, at the age of sixty-one, his wickets still cost only 11 runs apiece." – Sir Len Hutton, The Greatest English Captain since the second war.


You have too proper sources who faced and saw him saying his "breaks" were "cutters", and he himself said he bowled as a fast pace (IE much quicker than spinners), and we have accounts of him swinging the ball.

Here are accounts of him bowling in-swingers

“I played three different balls. Three balls to play in a split second- a straight ‘un, an in-swinger and a break back ! Then along came one which was straight half-way, not more than medium pace. Then it swerved to my legs, perfect for tickling around the corner for a single. But the ruddy thing again broke across after pitching, quick off the ground and took my off stump!” – Clement Hill, the First Great Australian Batsman.

Here is an outswinger, leg to off IE from the leg stump to off stump, Swerve = Swing, basically an outswinger.

“On his great Australian tour he clean-bowled Victor Trumper at the height of his powers, a ball swerving from the leg stump to the off and then breaking back to hit the leg. It was the sort of ball, that a man might see when he was tight. I was at the other end, I should know.”Charlie Macartney, Great Australian Batsman.

Here is confirmation he bowled both, outswing and inswing, and both were late.

“On a perfect wicket Barnes could swing the new ball in and out very late, could spin from the ground, pitch on the leg stump and miss the off.” – Clement Hill, The First Great Australian Batsman.

Here is one final description, saying his pace was more than medium Fast, he swung it in late (late inswing) and then had it straighten after pitching (leg cutter), that's the main Barnes ball. Also confirms he had both outswing and inswing and both off cutter and leg cutter but that much was obvious

""At appreciably more than medium pace he could, even in the finest weather and on the truest wickets in Australia, both swing and break the ball from off or leg. Most deadly of all was the ball which he would deliver from rather wide on the crease, move in with a late swerve the width of the wicket, and then straighten back off the ground to hit the off stump". – Harry Altham, Ex-Cricketer turned Historian, lived through Barnes' era

Basically Barnes relied on late swing both ways, huge leg cutters, bounce and so forth to get his wickets, and was directly put in the same distinction as Maurice Tate and Alec Bedser, clear medium pacers. He's just a medium pacer, that's all there is to it
 
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Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Now regarding the earlier distinction I mentioned, for example, Maurice Tate was said to have spun the ball.

...Phillip Mead was carrying on a typical wwar of attrition against the bowlers..Tate grew exasperated (and) stung by the sight of his best off-breaks mocked and murdered, released partly in exasperation and partly by accident, a venomous ball which pitched on the off stump and, at a heightening speed before Mead could move over to cover it, spun wickedly across and took his leg stick. The impossible had happened. For an ordinary off-spinner to have penetrated Mead's defence was about as likely as a pea-shooter piercing the armour plate of a battleship, it was that lightening spurt, that uncanny accelration that had done the trick. – AA Thomson, Legendary English Writer

Maurice Tate, Alec Bedser and Sydney Barnes were generally put in the same category of the exact same kind of bowler.

He will always be compared with Barnes, who came before, and Bedser who came after. They fall naturally into a trinity of high powered fast-medium bowlers, easily the finest of their kind and, strictly as far as batsmen are concerned, an unholy trinity – AA Thomson, Legendary English Writer.

Hell, Bedser and Barnes are so similar that the description Fred Trueman gives of Bedser's ball is literally identical to the Barnes ball.

The Bedser Ball

You will hear the Australians call a certain delivery a leg-cutter, which I would call a seamer. The leg-cutter that Alec bowled was different. His hand was pulled across the seam, and with the aid of the fingers it was really a very fast leg break, Alec was helped by having enormous hands and fingers which were so large that when he placed the ball inside his fingers, it could not be seen.

Bowling his leg-cutters on a rain affected wicket or a dusty one, he could be virtually unplayable. The ball would dip into the batsman at a very lively fast-medium, and immediately after it had pitched it would cut back sharply towards the off. No batsman in the world really had an answer to the delivery which starts outside the off stump, pithces on leg stump, and hits the top of the off."
– Fred Trueman, The Greatest English Fast bowler


The Barnes Ball

""At appreciably more than medium pace he could, even in the finest weather and on the truest wickets in Australia, both swing and break the ball from off or leg. Most deadly of all was the ball which he would deliver from rather wide on the crease, move in with a late swerve the width of the wicket, and then straighten back off the ground to hit the off stump". – Harry Altham, Ex-Cricketer turned Historian, lived through Barnes' era

Literally the exact same ball down to the minute details.

Pace? Higher end of Fast Medium.

In-Swing? Check, it would "dip in" IE swing in, the natural swing variation of Bedser and Barnes had a great inswinger too.

Deviation off the pitch? a leg cutter/break/spin whatever you want to call it.

Wicket method? in swinger, late movement through the air, pitches, leg cutter, hits the stump.

These three are very similar bowlers and were often characterised with terms like "spin" or "break" in olden terms but in modern terms it's cutters, Bedser himself said when bowling the leg cutter, many termed it spin too and that's because there wasn't a proper distinction.

"Today they call this a legcutter and because of the big seam on the ball these days it deviates upon pitching. Balls just after the war had hardly any seam, so I found I had to actually spin the ball. I found my big hands helped the process and that I did not have to change my action at all."

"I didn't want the ball to swing in, so I held it across the seam as if gripping the ball for a legbreak. When it pitched it went away off the track like a big-spinning legbreak. Obviously I had spun the ball. Sid looked down the pitch and said, 'What's bloody going on?' I walked back for the next ball, again holding the ball across the seam, and Peter Smith, an older Essex player fielding at mid-on, observed my grip and said, 'You can't hold a new ball like that.' Next ball I held it the same way and again it skipped off the pitch, just like a legbreak. It took me another 18 months to achieve the accuracy I wanted. Developing that ball confirmed what I had always believed - that bowlers should try things and think for themselves."
Alec Bedser, the Great English Seamer.


This distinction of spin and cutters is a modern thing, Spofforth defined the distinction as spin taking you to twist your fingers and your wrists while cuttings taking you to bring your hands due a side of the ball at a fast speed. I mean, even Ted McDonald was said to be bowling "spin" and Ted McDonald was not a spinner, but a proper fast bowler who bowled quick with actual pace with a perfect runup and bowling action. Hence proven, the "spun" thing is entirely a communication and language issue – both are trying to achieve the exact same thing but achieve it to varying degrees due to different methodology.

"Gregory always swung the new ball more effectively than his teammate and he was , if anything, slightly faster while the sheen remained on the ball. Once the newness was worn off he relied wholly on pace whereas McDonald was able to turn the ball back from the off even at his fastest speed, and with this ball he could be most destructive. The spin that McDonald imparted added speed to his delivery in a most deceptive manner, after the ball made contact with the pitch. On the other hand, Gregory’s delivery did not gain pace from the pitch, rather did it lose impetus, particularly on a lifeless wicket.." – Bert Oldfield, Great Australian Wicket Keeper

And McDonald wasn't slow, not only was he considered a fast bowler, anyone with eyes can see he is a fast bowler.


My opinion, What is the common point between Sydney Barnes, Maurice Tate and Alec Bedser? height, of course, of both their body and their hands but another one is their large hands. The difference between cutters and spin is methodological and revolves around the resultant, but the Idea is the same, As Frederick Spofforth put it once, in spin you twist your fingers and wrists but with cutters you simply bring down your fingers but with cut you just push down one side of the ball with your fingers, these guys have abnormally larger and heavier fingers and the amount of force they can apply on one side is naturally far greater. So relying on natural swing and then your huge hands to produce magnificent cutters seem like the way to go, all three are defined as medium fast or fast medium, both Bedser and Barnes being stated to push the limits of fast-medium with their inswinger leg breaks.
 
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Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
IIRC someone here once posted that they had actually asked Bedser about his bowling and he specifically compared himself to Tom Cartwright, who was considered just 'medium' in his day.
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
There are different accounts, so not sure but while searching,

"Barnes considered himself essentially a spin bowler as he bowled both the off-break and the Leg-break, but at a fast pace" - Arlott on Cricket, p. 16

If he saw himself as spinner then he was a spinner with a faster pace for me.
He had transcended the simple limitations of categories like "seamer" or "spinner" and gone even further beyond.

 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
That account is totally based on him being jealous of Tate getting praised post his ATG Ashes and bragging about how he spun the ball much more. In his playing days there wasn't any mystery about his bowling style, he was a medium pacer.
Yeah, but the term had a much different connotation than it does today.

Back then the medium pacer could use cut even more than the more modern seam and swing reliant bowlers, and the reduced speed compared to the real express merchants was seen more of a choice to utilize those tools better rather than as pejoratively as it is now.

I don't think Barnes really saw bowling as having that hard and fast of a distinction in styles as we see now. You can say that's because it was less optimized, and fair enough, but he likely simply felt he was best using everything he could most skillfully to take wickets, simple as.
 

the big bambino

Cricketer Of The Year
There are different accounts, so not sure but while searching,

"Barnes considered himself essentially a spin bowler as he bowled both the off-break and the Leg-break, but at a fast pace" - Arlott on Cricket, p. 16

If he saw himself as spinner then he was a spinner with a faster pace for me.
I don't believe this is a comment relating to pace. Barnes was jealous of his skills and objected to people saying he seamed or cut the ball. He thought that underplayed his skill and implied luck. He said he spun the ball rather than seamed or cut it and he alone possessed that skill, and at medium pace.
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
It didn't. The description was applied by those who saw him and cricket all the way up to the 70s. It had the same meaning all through.
I'm talking negative vs positive. Nowadays it kind of just means you don't have the pace to be a "proper" seamer. I.e. the style isn't as appreciated and perceived as being as potent as in the past.

Once again, I don't think Barnes was so bothered at exactly what pace he was bowling at or how it was classified. As long as he could get the best purchase available for himself from the pitch to take wickets.
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
I don't believe this is a comment relating to pace. Barnes was jealous of his skills and objected to people saying he seamed or cut the ball. He thought that underplayed his skill and implied luck. He said he spun the ball rather than seamed or cut it and he alone possessed that skill, and at medium pace.
He'd hardly be the first, or last bowler to switch between tools in the box according to conditions.

Big Bill Johnston could bowl both pace and spin. I've seen some footage of both styles of his. Thing is, his normal fast bowling run was rather short, bounding and whippy as is, so going to left arm spin was maybe only a half speed different in approach.

Point is bowlers didn't have to be as specialized in those days, so there was more scope for them to use more flexible approaches. Getting a little less joy and purchase on an uncovered pitch with the sprint and sling approach that now characterizes the modern pacer, probably also contributed to that tendency.

For Barnes, I don't think he really ever saw the need to "choose a style" to make use of different techniques.
 
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Coronis

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
He'd hardly be the first, or last bowler to switch between tools in the box according to conditions.

Big Bill Johnston could bowl both pace and spin. I've seen some footage of both styles of his. Thing is, his normal fast bowling run was rather short, bounding and whippy as is, so going to left arm spin was maybe only a half speed different in approach.

Point is bowlers didn't have to be as specialized in those days, so there was more scope for them to use more flexible approaches. Getting a little less joy and purchase on an uncovered pitch with the sprint and sling approach that now characterizes the modern pacer, probably also contributed to that tendency.

For Barnes, I don't think he really ever saw the need to "choose a style" to make use of different techniques.
Procter could also be a very effective offspinner.
 

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