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Variation of the pitch?

Chrish

U19 Captain


Interesting debate here regarding spinner's ability to turn the ball. Accordign to this guy, it's a natural variation of the pitch that makes the ball turn.

"You can say it's Shane Warne controlling it, but 90% of the time it's pitch doing it. That's why some balls turn massively while others don't."

But if that's the case, how come other spinners couldn't turn the ball to that extent?
 

TheJediBrah

Hall of Fame Member
Obviously it's both. The ball doesn't just spin because it hits the pitch, it has to have revolutions on it and the more revolutions the more it's going to turn, on average.

Not sure this question really needed a thread tbh
 

Daemon

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I think OP needs to rephrase a bit or rewatch the video. He was talking about what people call 'natural variations', kind of what Jadeja has been doing his entire career. Dude in the video said 9/10 times Shane Warne wasn't controlling exactly how much the ball was going to spin, it was the pitch causing it to turn that fraction more or less.
 

OverratedSanity

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The best spinners do control how much the ball by varying the axis of the seam. It's not an exact science and Warne probably doesn't know exactly how much it'll spin, but he can with atleast some degree of certainty tell if it'll spin more or spin less than the previous delivery he's bowled. Guys like Jadeja rely way more on natural variation.

Seam bowlers, on the other hand, have basically zero idea which way it'll seam or how much.
 

OverratedSanity

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It is. No bowler knows which way it'll seam. And nah, that McGrath delivery to Warner doesn't prove anything. That was all about the angle of delivery and not the seam movement.
 

TheJediBrah

Hall of Fame Member
Not true regarding seam bowlers.
Yeah it is. Being able to control the direction the ball cuts off the seam is a myth.

If you're talking off-cut/leg-cut by rolling your fingers down the side of the ball though, that's a different matter
 

zorax

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Every seam/swing bowler I've talked to has no idea how they get the ball to move

I was once umpiring a game and in the 43rd over the fast bowler bowled a beaut that pitched on middle and swerved away late to just miss offstump. It was a dead pitch and that was the first ball to move in 20 overs. I asked him how he did it, and he replied "mate if I knew I'd be playing International cricket and wouldn't be here"
 

TheJediBrah

Hall of Fame Member
Controlling swing is a bit different. It's very possible, even easy at times. I'm not even a bowler and I can bowl outswingers and inswingers at will given a suitable ball and condiitons
 

Daemon

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It is. No bowler knows which way it'll seam. And nah, that McGrath delivery to Warner doesn't prove anything. That was all about the angle of delivery and not the seam movement.
Yeah it is. Being able to control the direction the ball cuts off the seam is a myth.

If you're talking off-cut/leg-cut by rolling your fingers down the side of the ball though, that's a different matter
Every seam/swing bowler I've talked to has no idea how they get the ball to move

I was once umpiring a game and in the 43rd over the fast bowler bowled a beaut that pitched on middle and swerved away late to just miss offstump. It was a dead pitch and that was the first ball to move in 20 overs. I asked him how he did it, and he replied "mate if I knew I'd be playing International cricket and wouldn't be here"
I argued the same as you guys ages ago and Benchy and Goughy (iirc) completely ripped into me, they were very certain you can. I can't even recall their arguments lol but I took their word for it because they're good players irl.
 

Starfighter

International Coach
Every seam/swing bowler I've talked to has no idea how they get the ball to move
You can't have talked to too many then. Or they don't know how that sort of thing works in HK.

Although people here have theories that make me go 'nah' all the time.
 
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Daemon

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It makes sense that it's something that people can control, although probably not very well. There are bowlers who constantly get it to nip in, but rarely have it straighten, all while bowling with a straight seam. If it were random there'd be less of a discrepancy no?

I know guys who complain that when they try to bowl and outswinger and it doesn't swing, the ball just nips back in slightly.

I don't think it's a perfected art or guys doing it at will, put there is some degree of control that top players have over seam movement.
 

StephenZA

International Coach
If you can control the angle of the seam, you can control the direction in which it seams to a certain extent by making it more likely to seam one direction than the other. Philander does this where you see him bowl seam up, 2 that nip away follwed by one that nips in. He also bowls with a scrambed seam though and then its anybodys guess.
 

OverratedSanity

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If you can control the angle of the seam, you can control the direction in which it seams to a certain extent by making it more likely to seam one direction than the other. Philander does this where you see him bowl seam up, 2 that nip away follwed by one that nips in. He also bowls with a scrambed seam though and then its anybodys guess.
This being the key. The angle of the seam makes it more likely that it'll land the way you want and seam the direction you want. There is still very much an element of randomness here beyond the bowler's control.
 

StephenZA

International Coach
This being the key. The angle of the seam makes it more likely that it'll land the way you want and seam the direction you want. There is still very much an element of randomness here beyond the bowler's control.
This is true for spin as well though... the exact position it hits on the ball the grip it gets off the pitch, while controlled through revolution is not guaranteed. And this is true for every ball ever bowled regradless of style. The best are just better at controlling it.
 

OverratedSanity

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I argued the same as you guys ages ago and Benchy and Goughy (iirc) completely ripped into me, they were very certain you can. I can't even recall their arguments lol but I took their word for it because they're good players irl.
It's physically impossible AFAIC. No bowler has that much control over a ball's trajectory after it's left his hand. There's so much that can happen in the 15 or so yards that the ball is in the air that it's just not possible that s bowler can be sure what the angle of the seam will be at the point where it hits the pitch. As StephenZA said he can make it more likely to go one way with the angle of the seam but it's still not in any way a guarantee.

I've actually spoken to Javagal Srinath on this and although it's never a good idea to trust an Indian fast bowler on his knowledge of the game, he seemed confident.
 
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OverratedSanity

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This is true for spin as well though... the exact position it hits on the ball the grip it gets off the pitch, while controlled through revolution is not guaranteed. And this is true for every ball ever bowled regradless of style. The best are just better at controlling it.
Nah definitely not. If you bowl a leg break it isn't going to accidentally become a googly and turn the other way. Spinners have full control over which way the ball goes... The extent of spin which is under their control is debatable but the direction is a guarantee.
 
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TheJediBrah

Hall of Fame Member
I argued the same as you guys ages ago and Benchy and Goughy (iirc) completely ripped into me, they were very certain you can. I can't even recall their arguments lol but I took their word for it because they're good players irl.
Evidently not a good assumption to make

It makes sense that it's something that people can control, although probably not very well. There are bowlers who constantly get it to nip in, but rarely have it straighten, all while bowling with a straight seam. If it were random there'd be less of a discrepancy no?

I know guys who complain that when they try to bowl and outswinger and it doesn't swing, the ball just nips back in slightly.

I don't think it's a perfected art or guys doing it at will, put there is some degree of control that top players have over seam movement.
Sorry but there really isn't. Just think about how movement off the seam works for a bit, just the physics and common sense of it, and you'll start to see why it's absurd to think you can control the direction of movement. Maybe it's possible to slightly increase the chances of it moving one way by altering seam position, like say 55/45 instead of 50/50, but even then it's doubtful.

This is true for spin as well though... the exact position it hits on the ball the grip it gets off the pitch, while controlled through revolution is not guaranteed. And this is true for every ball ever bowled regradless of style. The best are just better at controlling it.
No it just seems that way at times. It looks great when the way the ball moves turns out to be beneficial, and can be very tempting to attribute it to the bowler, but it's effectively entirely up to luck.
 

TheJediBrah

Hall of Fame Member
Nah definitely not. If you bowl a leg break it isn't going to accidentally become a googly and turn the other way. Spinners have full control over which way the ball goes... The extent of spin which is under their control is debatable but the direction is a guarantee.
Yeah they are completely different things. That's a very poor comparison
 

StephenZA

International Coach
Nah definitely not. If you bowl a leg break it isn't going to accidentally become a googly and turn the other way. Spinners have full control over which way the ball goes... The extent of spin which is under their control is debatable but the direction is a guarantee.
I thought we where talking variation not bowling style....of course a spinner will always spin the ball in a specfic direction, but the amount and variation is the skill of the bowler and pitch. Similarly, for the seamer, who can control the seam position enough to get the ball to move in the direction he wants more often than not, based on his skill. How much movement is another thing.

No it just seems that way at times. It looks great when the way the ball moves turns out to be beneficial, and can be very tempting to attribute it to the bowler, but it's effectively entirely up to luck.
I`ve seen Philander and McGrath control the seam position and get the ball going the right way to often to setup batsmen, that I can only disagree with you.
 

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