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*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

Salamuddin

International Debutant
Kiwis have a good ODI team - will be tough to beat in the WC 2007.

Will be competitive in tests on their greentops at home but will be struggle to win away from home....simply because all their bowlers are mediocre with the exception of Bond.
 

shortpitched713

International Regular
NZTailender said:
Good work on ignoring NZ's best ODI opening batsmen for a year or so.
I'm not going to pretend that I am the be all end all when it comes to New Zealand cricket. Still, I haven't been too impressed with Vincent as a one day opener, looks more comfortable in the middle order, but I wouldn't take out any of those batsmen for him with the possible exception of Marshall.

Still, I can't help but feel that theres somthing fundamentally wrong with a team that has Kyle Mills as an automatic selection. :p
 

Natman20

International Debutant
I think a lot of people under-estimate Kyle Mills. He has improved over the last couple of years and is looking to be a consistent ODI option. Be interesting to see if Tuffey could force his way back into the frame next year. Our New Zealand attack I agree doesn't look that threatening without Bond but we have still managed to win at a consistent level without him. I think our batting depth is finally becoming all-right but i'm not to sure if our bowling depth is very good at all and if a couple of our pace-men got injured I would be worried.
 

shortpitched713

International Regular
While I do agree that New Zealand's batting depth has improved, their batting is lacking in that they don't have a single batsmen that I would call extremely good. Fleming and Astle come close, but they aren't good enough. They don't really have batsmen that could demolish an attack, besides Astle and hes too inconsistent. Hopefully, some of the young batsmen can step up to fill the void.
 

Retox

State Vice-Captain
Mills has been bowling well over the last year, I can't wait to see what he and bond can do together.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
shortpitched713 said:
I'm not going to pretend that I am the be all end all when it comes to New Zealand cricket. Still, I haven't been too impressed with Vincent as a one day opener, looks more comfortable in the middle order, but I wouldn't take out any of those batsmen for him with the possible exception of Marshall.

Cricinfo stats said:
Code:
                     Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0
Opening               21   21   0   636 172  102   71   30.28   2   1   1
3rd position          18   18   1   414  90   66   55   24.35   0   3   1
4th position           3    3   0     2   1    1    0    0.66   0   0   1
5th position          19   19   1   477  60*  55   45   26.50   0   2   0
6th position          15   15   5   248  53*  36   33*  24.80   0   1   2
7th position           3    3   1    59  31   20*   8   29.50   0   0   0
8th position           1    1   1    31  31*   -    -     -     0   0   0
I would say he's better off opening. Besides, we have a lot of finishers like McCullum, Vettori and Oram while Styris, Marshall and Fleming are good middle order batsmen for us.

Opening combination should be Astle and Vincent. Nuff said.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I still think Astle is our best ODI batsman so probably should come in at Number 3, I'd like to see Fleming and Vincent opening because then it's a left/right combination which adds some spice to the top order. But I think Astle and Fleming are pretty interchangeable whether they are opening or coming in at one down, that's how Brace's probably sees it anyway.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Perm said:
I still think Astle is our best ODI batsman so probably should come in at Number 3, I'd like to see Fleming and Vincent opening because then it's a left/right combination which adds some spice to the top order. But I think Astle and Fleming are pretty interchangeable whether they are opening or coming in at one down, that's how Brace's probably sees it anyway.

Yeah, good points there. Does Cricnfo have a way of getting stats for opening combinations?
 

Matt52

U19 Vice-Captain
Here's my two cents.....

Champions Trophy............... World Cup (what I'd like to see, but will prob not happen)

Vincent ......... ................ Ryder
Astle ............................. Astle/ Vincent
Marshall ......................... Taylor
Fleming ......................... Fleming
Fulton ........................... Fulton
Oram ........................ ..... Oram
McCullum ..... .............. .. McCullum
Vettori ......... ................. Vettori
Franklin ........ ................ Franklin
Bond .............................. Bond
Gillespie. ......................... Gillespie

As a comparison: To me the team on the right looks much more dangerous, more well balanced, in both batting and bowling options (Taylor and Ryders bowling)

1)Ryder and Astle/Vincent opening would provide a right/left combination with two attacking options and less pressure on Vincent to try and smack everything. I think Vincent would be better if he batted a little(just a little) more sensibly. He seems to get out trying to smash it over the top all the time. Ryder is very attacking naturally so this would help out his opening partner.
2) Taylor is simply a more talented batsman than marshall. He can attack more, scare the bowlers more, his feilding is really good and he bowls a little spin. Taylor wins hands down. ( although Marshall is a good player)

3) Fleming, Fulton and Oram are heady players that I would be confident can control the middle part of a innings. This is where I think we lose it sometimes, we dither around in the middle of an innings and the runrate gets too high. You need calm and smart cricketers here.

4) McCullum is our best keeper and Vettori is our best spinner

5)I simply think Franklin is better than Mills now, has more potential than Mills, provides more variation (lefty) than Mills and is a better batsman than Mills.

6)I think Gillespie should be given a go with Bond and then be given a chance at the world cup(provided he does OK at the CT). I have only seen a little bit of him but he seemed pretty quick. I think Bond needs a fast bowling partner. You cant just have one fast bowler. They tend to work better in tandem. You think of ,,,,,,,,,Ambrose and Walsh, Lillee and Thompson,,,,,pollock and Donald,,,,,, Waqar and Wasim......I am not for a moment suggesting that our two will be anything like as good as those combinations but you see my point.. The batsmen have no respite if fast bowling is coming from both ends........Remember the world cup against Aus last time when Bond demolished the Aussies from one end but we had no other attacking option to clean up the tail when Bond ran out of overs, and so the Aussies got of the hook,, nudged around our mediums and won the game. If we had another fast bowler bowling then 140kph at the Aussie tail might have been more useful than 130kph. Typing for a long time is hard.

7) The last point. With Ryder , taylor, and Astle(guess) in the side, the only members of the team above that dont bowl are Fleming, Fulton, and and the keeper........8 options in total, while the team on the left just has 6, with Astle the 6th bowler..So I think it has a better batting line-up, more talented and more dangerous.......with the same front line bowlers but more options for the 5th, 6th, and 7th, and even 8th bowler slots.
 
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Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Ross Taylor is not a bowler, in List A matches he has bowled 33 overs in 39 games. He can hardly be relied upon as someone who will give you 5 solid overs of spin in the middle of an innings. And as for Jesse Ryder I think we should give him another season of domesetic cricket to hone his skills, he doesn't have a very good average in List A cricket and should be given more chances to really show the Black Caps selectors that he could possibly be at the World Cup. At the moment an average of 26 just doesn't do it for me.

An also a note on Lou Vincent's possible opening partner, whether it be Fleming or Astle. Of Lou Vincent's 7 ODI fifties when he has been opening, twice he has been partnered by Fleming (he went on to make a century both times) and once by Astle. Twice Vincent and Fleming have put on century partnerships (106 and 204) and they average 45 together. Only once have Vincent and Astle made a fifty partnership and that opening combination averages 23.

Astle averages 35.36 when he is opening and 51.07 when he comes in at Number 3.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Well that settles it. Astle at 3 and Fleming/Vincent to open :cool:

After Astle retires (probably after the World Cup) then some of the young guys like Taylor, Ryder or How will be given better runs in the side. And after Fleming goes we may see a line up like this:

1. Vincent
2. How
3. Taylor
4. Fulton
5. Ryder
6. Styris
7. Oram
8. McCullum (wk)
9. Vettori
10. Bond
11. Gillespie
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
No I remember watching some CD games during the State Shield and Ross Taylor was at 3 or 4 I think, definately not opening in the games I saw. Where are Franklin and Mills? Surely one of them will still be in the side.
 

James

Cricket Web Owner
NZTailender said:
Well that settles it. Astle at 3 and Fleming/Vincent to open :cool:

After Astle retires (probably after the World Cup) then some of the young guys like Taylor, Ryder or How will be given better runs in the side. And after Fleming goes we may see a line up like this:

1. Vincent
2. How
3. Taylor
4. Fulton
5. Ryder
6. Styris
7. Oram
8. McCullum (wk)
9. Vettori
10. Bond
11. Gillespie
Bond will retire before Fleming surely?
 

shortpitched713

International Regular
NZTailender said:
Well that settles it. Astle at 3 and Fleming/Vincent to open :cool:

After Astle retires (probably after the World Cup) then some of the young guys like Taylor, Ryder or How will be given better runs in the side. And after Fleming goes we may see a line up like this:

1. Vincent
2. How
3. Taylor
4. Fulton
5. Ryder
6. Styris
7. Oram
8. McCullum (wk)
9. Vettori
10. Bond
11. Gillespie
Who's the captain? Is New Zealand doing anything to groom a replacement for Fleming? His will be large shoes to fill.
 

16 tins of Spam

International Vice-Captain
Natman20 said:
*DL Vettori

IMO
I think it's fairly common knowledge that Vettori is the next in line. They were talking about Oram for a while but with him being out of the side and no longer able to command a place in the team he's fallen down the pecking order.
 

James

Cricket Web Owner
I don't think Vettori can be the next captain for the sole reason that I don't believe his place is assured in the team, especially the Test lineup.
 

16 tins of Spam

International Vice-Captain
James said:
I don't think Vettori can be the next captain for the sole reason that I don't believe his place is assured in the team, especially the Test lineup.
I agree with you solely in terms of the evidence, ie. he's really not as good as the hyperbole suggests.

On the other hand, in NZ cricket circles Dan Vettori is a sacred cow - until Jeetan Patel's stats start to point out what's already seemingly quite obvious to you and I, Vettori's place in the team is pretty much a sure thing.
 

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