**.....UNOFFICIAL.....** ASHES 2007 thread

[tooextracool]

Little bit premature, don't you think? He played one game, after all.

ok fine, failed miserably in the game that he played. you have to admit though that bringing johnson up as an example to contradict my initial point made no sense whatsoever?

 

[tooextracool]

I can't be arsed to plough through the rest of the thread to find out, but which Johnson was TEC referring to? Richard Johnson?

it was actually the australian mitchell johnson

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

i can hardly see how 1/40 is anything useful, and as ive said earlier, once mcgrath and warne go it would be even more worthless.

I don't see how it's anything terrible either, which is the point. Anyway, we're not talking about after McGrath and Warne go, but the role he can play in the side now. And really, who should they pick instead? The ball will probably swing in South Africa, Bracken is the best swing bowler in Australia, he's done decently in recent times in tests, and he'll be there for the ODI squad. It's a no-brainer to pick him. If he fails, he'll be dropped.

Hoggard swings the ball in many more conditions than Bracken does. Bracken only really swings the ball(or anything noticeable) when the conditions are significantly in his favor. and even when he does manage to swing the ball he swings it only one way(as opposed to hoggard). for me Bracken is no better than alan mullally or irfan pathan. all 3 of them have very good control when they swing the ball, but none have any sort of variety of signifcance. Mullally for me is the perfect example for Bracken though, both are tall, left handed, one dimensional with relation to swing and economical(Mullally was quite an ODI bowler though). of course i'd love to hear what Bracken has that mullally didnt, or I'd like to hear about how Mullally was test class.

Seems a pretty pointless argument. Obviously Mullally didn't perform at test level, so I'm not going to say he was test class. I think he was a pretty good bowler though, certainly better than a lot of those England have tried. Anyway, Bracken does indeed have fairly effective variations. He's got a variety of good slower balls and a good leg-cutter at least. More to the point, I wonder what Hoggard has that Bracken doesn't. Both of them are lethal in swing-friendly conditions (although obviously Hoggard has done that at test level and Bracken has not, but that's not Bracken's fault at this point in time), accurate but fairly ineffective otherwise, they are about the same pace, and their stock variation is one that leaves the right-hander off the pitch. Hoggard swings the new ball nominally almost every time he balls, which Bracken does as well (based on domestic cricket at least), and neither do much once the ball gets old unless conditions are helping.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

ok fine, failed miserably in the game that he played. you have to admit though that bringing johnson up as an example to contradict my initial point made no sense whatsoever?

Yeah, it was a bit strange.

Anyway, I wouldn't write off Johnson just yet. He's been pretty awful in his domestic career so far, but he's got some traits that are pretty rare (ie, pace and swing for a left-armer) so if he continues to improve he could be a great bowler yet.

 

[tooextracool]

I don't see how it's anything terrible either, which is the point. Anyway, we're not talking about after McGrath and Warne go, but the role he can play in the side now.

correct me if im wrong here, but shouldnt australia be looking for a successor to glenn mcgrath right now? really you cant afford to pick short term options, id much rather experiment and take risks with new bowlers now, than to chop and change after mcgrath and warne are gone.

And really, who should they pick instead? The ball will probably swing in South Africa, Bracken is the best swing bowler in Australia, he's done decently in recent times in tests, and he'll be there for the ODI squad. It's a no-brainer to pick him. If he fails, he'll be dropped.

bracken is the best swing bowler in australia? do they simply not produce swing bowlers in australia anymore? as far as doing recently in recent times is concerned, one can only wonder how miserable his test average would be were it not for that 4 wicket haul against the WI, and when its likely to be worse than his current test average of 42, its obviously not very good. and id be extremely surprised if he succeeds in SA if the conditions are the same as we are used to in the last few years.

Seems a pretty pointless argument. Obviously Mullally didn't perform at test level, so I'm not going to say he was test class. I think he was a pretty good bowler though, certainly better than a lot of those England have tried. Anyway, Bracken does indeed have fairly effective variations. He's got a variety of good slower balls and a good leg-cutter at least. More to the point, I wonder what Hoggard has that Bracken doesn't. Both of them are lethal in swing-friendly conditions (although obviously Hoggard has done that at test level and Bracken has not, but that's not Bracken's fault at this point in time), accurate but fairly ineffective otherwise, they are about the same pace, and their stock variation is one that leaves the right-hander off the pitch. Hoggard swings the new ball nominally almost every time he balls, which Bracken does as well (based on domestic cricket at least), and neither do much once the ball gets old unless conditions are helping.

slower balls are really not going to get you too many wickets in test match cricket. as far as the comparison with hoggard and bracken is concerned, hoggard can swing the ball both ways, so hes not really as one dimensional, and he swings the ball in many more conditions than bracken can. further Hoggard would be incapable of leading the england attack, and were it not for harmison,jones and flintoff in the side, he would be in and out just like he used to be before the foursome became the force they is today.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

correct me if im wrong here, but shouldnt australia be looking for a successor to glenn mcgrath right now? really you cant afford to pick short term options, id much rather experiment and take risks with new bowlers now, than to chop and change after mcgrath and warne are gone.

Australia aren't going to get a repalcement for McGrath, obviously. They should be looking to build the foundations of a strong bowling attack, and Bracken deserves a chance to prove that he can be a valuable part of that.

bracken is the best swing bowler in australia?

Without question. The only other specialist swing bowlers having success in domestic cricket at the moment are Andy Bichel, who is too old to be considered now, and Brett Dorey, who has been given a run in the ODI side without much success. This is assuming we leave aside express bowlers who swing it occasionally like Tait and Johnson.

slower balls are really not going to get you too many wickets in test match cricket. as far as the comparison with hoggard and bracken is concerned, hoggard can swing the ball both ways, so hes not really as one dimensional, and he swings the ball in many more conditions than bracken can. further Hoggard would be incapable of leading the england attack, and were it not for harmison,jones and flintoff in the side, he would be in and out just like he used to be before the foursome became the force they is today.

As I said earlier, Bracken -can- swing the ball both ways, and I've seen him do so when the ball is swinging, in domestic cricket and in ODIs in India. Exactly like Hoggard though, he rarely does so and his stock ball is the outswinger. Regardless it hardly matters. If your stock ball comes in to the batsman and you have a variation ball that goes straight across or leaves them a little off the pitch, that's more than enough if the ball is moving. Bracken is also not required to lead the Australian attack, by any stretch.

 

[tooextracool]

Australia aren't going to get a repalcement for McGrath, obviously. They should be looking to build the foundations of a strong bowling attack, and Bracken deserves a chance to prove that he can be a valuable part of that..

i didnt mean a like for like replacement obviously, i meant someone who could lead the attack. brett lee is clearly incapable of being anything more than a support bowler, hes certainly not consistent or accurate enough to be a leading strike bowler. as far as bracken is concerned, you yourself said that you cant see him being anything more than a defensive bowler until the conditions suit him.

Without question. The only other specialist swing bowlers having success in domestic cricket at the moment are Andy Bichel, who is too old to be considered now, and Brett Dorey, who has been given a run in the ODI side without much success. This is assuming we leave aside express bowlers who swing it occasionally like Tait and Johnson.

well i'd much rather see tait than bracken to be honest, although im not too positive about either of them. tait at least if he can sort out his accuracy might develop into a decent bowler. looking at gillespie's season so far though id rather have him back over anyone else.

As I said earlier, Bracken -can- swing the ball both ways, and I've seen him do so when the ball is swinging, in domestic cricket and in ODIs in India.

i certainly havent seen any of his outswingers, not in india, and definetly not against the WI.

Exactly like Hoggard though, he rarely does so and his stock ball is the outswinger. Regardless it hardly matters. If your stock ball comes in to the batsman and you have a variation ball that goes straight across or leaves them a little off the pitch, that's more than enough if the ball is moving. Bracken is also not required to lead the Australian attack, by any stretch.

it maybe good enough in bowler-friendly conditions, but it doesnt exactly make you lethal, especially not if you bowl at barely above medium pace. i presume you mean that brackens stock ball is the outswinger to the left hander, while hoggards' is an outswinger to the right hander. and as i said earlier, bracken(or someone else)will be required to lead the attack in the near future, unless you expect him to be in the side for only the next 9 months.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

i didnt mean a like for like replacement obviously, i meant someone who could lead the attack. brett lee is clearly incapable of being anything more than a support bowler, hes certainly not consistent or accurate enough to be a leading strike bowler. as far as bracken is concerned, you yourself said that you cant see him being anything more than a defensive bowler until the conditions suit him.

Lee led the attack this summer and he did so with some success. I don't see how you could possibly argue that if he bowled like he did this summer all the time he would not be capable of leading an attack, because he bowled as well as anyone is likely to.

well i'd much rather see tait than bracken to be honest, although im not too positive about either of them. tait at least if he can sort out his accuracy might develop into a decent bowler. looking at gillespie's season so far though id rather have him back over anyone else.

Tait is a long term option, but right now he's coming back from injury and can't throw, and hasn't done much in domestic cricket since he got back. He certainly can't be picked until he regains his pre-Ashes form.

i certainly havent seen any of his outswingers, not in india, and definetly not against the WI.

Like Hoggard, he only really bowls inswingers when conditions suit. Come to think of it, I've never seen Hoggard swing the ball in to a right-hander in international cricket either. He might be able to do it, but he certainly didn't do it in the Ashes or in South Africa. He has one that cuts back in off the pitch, but then Bracken has that ball as well, and actually I'd say he's probably better at bowling it than Hoggard is. He completely beat someone (Chanderpaul perhaps?) at the Gabba with one and bowled him.

 

[Tom Halsey]

because he bowled as well as anyone is likely to.

No he didn't, he bowled well in very occasional patches.

The rest, he bowled tripe, and got deservedly carted.

To his credit, he's bowled well in the Aussie summer.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

No he didn't, he bowled well in very occasional patches.

The rest, he bowled tripe, and got deservedly carted.

To his credit, he's bowled well in the Aussie summer.

Being Australian, I meant our summer (ie, against the West Indies and South Africa), and not yours. He was decent in the Ashes at times and poor at others, but this summer (in Australia) he was certainly better than he has ever been before.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Being Australian, I meant our summer (ie, against the West Indies and South Africa), and not yours.

Ah, I see. Sorry.

 

[tooextracool]

Lee led the attack this summer and he did so with some success. I don't see how you could possibly argue that if he bowled like he did this summer all the time he would not be capable of leading an attack, because he bowled as well as anyone is likely to.

and by "this summer" you mean against the WI of course? because leading strike bowlers cannot afford to average 32.38 against quality test teams. even in the ashes he went at 41 a piece. now i know he bowled better than that and what not,but once mcgrath and warne retire, and if lee were to take over from mcgrath to lead the australian bowling attack, going at those averages would not be useful whatsoever.

Like Hoggard, he only really bowls inswingers when conditions suit. Come to think of it, I've never seen Hoggard swing the ball in to a right-hander in international cricket either. He might be able to do it, but he certainly didn't do it in the Ashes or in South Africa. He has one that cuts back in off the pitch, but then Bracken has that ball as well, and actually I'd say he's probably better at bowling it than Hoggard is. He completely beat someone (Chanderpaul perhaps?) at the Gabba with one and bowled him.

really? hoggard did not bowl inswingers in SA? its a bit strange then that someone like Graeme Smith would claim that he did, and its also ironic that he managed to get the outside edge of Graeme Smiths bat on several occasions by bowling outswingers to him(which would be an inswinger to a right hander)
and the only person who Bracken completely beat was Darren Powell, and i can assure you that it doesnt take too much brilliance with swing to dismiss him. even if you analyse his wickets against the WI, 2 were tailenders, Chanderpaul was given out lbw when it was a bit high and Lara gave his wicket away. so it didnt really take a mastery of swing to dismiss those players.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

and by "this summer" you mean against the WI of course? because leading strike bowlers cannot afford to average 32.38 against quality test teams. even in the ashes he went at 41 a piece. now i know he bowled better than that and what not,but once mcgrath and warne retire, and if lee were to take over from mcgrath to lead the australian bowling attack, going at those averages would not be useful whatsoever.

He averaged 25 over the whole summer, which is pretty good given it was quite a high scoring summer for opposition sides. He did so with McGrath out of form and Gillespie gone, basically carrying the seam attack. Obviously he has to be able to do that consistently, but he certainly demonstrated throughout the summer that he has the ability to be a quality strike bowler in test cricket, regardless of what he averaged in each series. In actuality, I think he bowled a fair bit better against South Africa than he did against the West Indies, against whom he had a couple of poor spells, both at the start of the first test and the end of the third.

and the only person who Bracken completely beat was Darren Powell, and i can assure you that it doesnt take too much brilliance with swing to dismiss him. even if you analyse his wickets against the WI, 2 were tailenders, Chanderpaul was given out lbw when it was a bit high and Lara gave his wicket away. so it didnt really take a mastery of swing to dismiss those players.

I was referring to the Chanderpaul wicket, who he got (whether it was a bit high or not, he completely beat him, though it was obviously lbw and not bowled) with his variation ball that comes back off the wicket (to the left hander, away from the right hander). It had nothing to do with mastery of swing, but it is an example of Bracken's variations that you suggested he didn't have. And yes, if you have the ability to consistently swing the ball in to a right-hander and then get it to leave them off the pitch, that's quite dangerous indeed, whether you swing them both ways or not.

Obviously getting Powell out was no huge achievement, though it was a pretty good delivery.

 

[aussie]

He averaged 25 over the whole summer, which is pretty good given it was quite a high scoring summer for opposition sides. He did so with McGrath out of form and Gillespie gone, basically carrying the seam attack.

exactly this alone gave me an idea that he is capable of leading the attack with McGrath gone, because he did it with McGrath not at his usual wicket-taking best..

 

[Richard]

Bracken is the best swing bowler in Australia

Better than Gillespie?
(Note - the real Gillespie, not the imposter who appeared in The Ashes)

Both of them are lethal in swing-friendly conditions (although obviously Hoggard has done that at test level and Bracken has not, but that's not Bracken's fault at this point in time), accurate but fairly ineffective otherwise

Bracken is far more accurate than Hoggard by-and-large.
His height, obviously, gives him a big advantage.

 

[Richard]

Being Australian, I meant our summer (ie, against the West Indies and South Africa), and not yours. He was decent in the Ashes at times and poor at others, but this summer (in Australia) he was certainly better than he has ever been before.

Better than 1999\2000?

 

[tooextracool]

He averaged 25 over the whole summer, which is pretty good given it was quite a high scoring summer for opposition sides. He did so with McGrath out of form and Gillespie gone, basically carrying the seam attack.

yes but he did it against WI, and didnt do it against SA. the question is whether or not b.lee can lead an attack without having glenn mcgrath and shane warne bowling tightly and taking wickets at the other end? because b.lee is simply never going to be able to bowl economically, and you can continue to expect him to take figures of 5/100 even when hes bowling at his best. 5/100 is fine when warne takes 3/40 or mcgrath takes 2/30. is it really that great when the other bowlers dont perform? because teams will still get 500 on the board. further brett lee isnt the model of consistency either, and looking at most of his performances he rarely even has 2 good innings in a test match, seems more like he takes wickets in one innings and gets slaughtered in the next. look at the pattern over the last summer(and just for you i'll do australian summer):
Brisbane: 1/59 and 5/30
Hobart: 3/32 and 2/99
Adelaide:3/111 and 4/46
Perth: 5/93 and 1/83
Melbourne: 3/92 and 0/23
Sydney: 3/82 and 1/48

so as you can see that hes bowled well on several occasions, unfortunately though hes been about as likely to get hammered all over the park in the other inning. your leading bowler cant afford to be going around the park for an entire inning every game, even if he bowls well in the other inning. and really the ashes followed a very similar pattern/

Obviously he has to be able to do that consistently, but he certainly demonstrated throughout the summer that he has the ability to be a quality strike bowler in test cricket, regardless of what he averaged in each series. In actuality, I think he bowled a fair bit better against South Africa than he did against the West Indies, against whom he had a couple of poor spells, both at the start of the first test and the end of the third..

brett lee doesnt have the consistency to be a leading bowler in test matches period. even he follows the pattern of last summer, hes still likely to go for loads of runs in several games of a series, and quality sides will really cash in on him when he bowls poorly, as we saw in england in the ashes. He needs a gillespie at the other end to lead the attack while he can play the counterfoil.

I was referring to the Chanderpaul wicket, who he got (whether it was a bit high or not, he completely beat him, though it was obviously lbw and not bowled) with his variation ball that comes back off the wicket (to the left hander, away from the right hander). It had nothing to do with mastery of swing, but it is an example of Bracken's variations that you suggested he didn't have. And yes, if you have the ability to consistently swing the ball in to a right-hander and then get it to leave them off the pitch, that's quite dangerous indeed, whether you swing them both ways or not..

it was really just a straight ball angled into chanderpaul, looked a lot more effective because he'd been swinging every other ball away from the left hander. cant imagine a bowler not being able to bowl a straight ball, and really that ball would have been completely ineffective if bracken hadnt been getting the swing he was getting during the game. a bowler who swings the ball both ways though is far more effective than one who just slips in the odd straight ball in there.

 

[tooextracool]

exactly this alone gave me an idea that he is capable of leading the attack with McGrath gone, because he did it with McGrath not at his usual wicket-taking best..

did he really? strange though that his average went up to 32 in the series in which mcgrath averaged 40 though.

 

[aussie]

did he really? strange though that his average went up to 32 in the series in which mcgrath averaged 40 though.

i was refering to the entire summer where he averaged 25 when for the majority except for the super test & the 1st test vs WI McGrath was his wicket-taking best..

 

[Richard]

As has been said - "the entire summer" is really rather a misnomer because while there are some similarities between the WI and SA series, the fact is by-and-large SA handled him rather better than WI did.
As such you simply have to look at them separately.