• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

The Secret of Glenn McGrath's Success

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Say for example, Andy Caddick has dismissed Steve Waugh 8 times and has conceded only an average of 10 runs.That sounds like domination as per your logic right ?....but I think it would be stupid to say that Waugh has been dominated by Caddick over all these years of Ashes cricket. For an English bowler to get that title against Waugh is quite ridiculous in my opinion.
Of course but you're neglecting a few things here which mitigate against your argument.

1) Sachin has scored two hundreds in 14 innings against Australia with Glenn McGrath in the side. Steve Waugh has scored 5 hundreds in 20 innings against England with Caddick in the side, averaging around 68. So even though Caddick can claim to have gotten Steve Waugh quite often, Steve Waugh has scored quite heavily still. Sachin with McGrath in the Australian side, hasn't and considering his average against Australia overall, it's probably that Glenn McGrath has been part of the reason for his relative failures against Australia with McGrath in the side.

2) Caddick has played against Steve Waugh more (16 matches; 26 innings) and has taken his wicket 8 times. Glenn McGrath has played only 7 Tests (14 innings) against Sachin and has taken his wicket 5 times. So Glenn McGrath is much more likely to take Sachin's wicket than Caddick is to get Steve Waugh's by quite a margin.
 

aussie_beater

State Vice-Captain
Originally posted by Top_Cat
Of course but you're neglecting a few things here which mitigate against your argument.
Ofcourse, I am not saying that Caddick has dominated Waugh.

I am arguing against that whole basis of argument by citing an example.Yes its not exactly similar to the case of Sachin versus McGrath, with far less matches having been played between the two but nonetheless it points to the fact that such statistics cannot be the only yardstick for determining whether a bowler dominated a batsman or vice versa.

[Edited on 27/11/2002 by aussie_beater]
 

CricketGuru

School Boy/Girl Captain
A Wasim or Waqar might have tried something different to blast a batsman out but it's a different situation. They are EXPECTED to do something like that so if it doesn't come off and they get hit some more, no-one questions it. If Jason Gillespie were bowling to Brian Lara, getting hit and he tried a yorker and got smacked for six, he'd be out of the attack or berated for not sticking to the plan. It's just a different perspective.
Well i just want to add something maybe thats why Pakistani bowling department has the most variety and thats why they can be so dangerous, because they get to experiment with the ball and if wasim and waqar are the highest wicket takers in ODIs its because they were allowed to experiment with the ball and espcially Wasim i have seen so many times testing the batsmen, even though the batsman does EXPECT something different everytime its still very UNEXPECTED(if u know what i mean). :rolleyes:
 

Gotchya

State Vice-Captain
If Jason Gillespie were bowling to Brian Lara, getting hit and he tried a yorker and got smacked for six, he'd be out of the attack or berated for not sticking to the plan. It's just a different perspective.
Nope. Sorry T_C. That doesn't break ice. Gillepsie is a different bowler to Mcgrath, and after getting hit if he tried to bowl a yorker (he probably wouldn't get hit for a six :D) even if he did I dont see Steve Waugh or Ponting coming up and bludgeoning him !

Further, i cant think of any situation or plan on top of my head where a side would allow 6 boundaries in an over just to preserve the game plan ? having watched Aussie cricket, I dont think that was part of their game ever.
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
Originally posted by Top_Cat
Of course but you're neglecting a few things here which mitigate against your argument.

1) Sachin has scored two hundreds in 14 innings against Australia with Glenn McGrath in the side. Steve Waugh has scored 5 hundreds in 20 innings against England with Caddick in the side, averaging around 68. So even though Caddick can claim to have gotten Steve Waugh quite often, Steve Waugh has scored quite heavily still. Sachin with McGrath in the Australian side, hasn't and considering his average against Australia overall, it's probably that Glenn McGrath has been part of the reason for his relative failures against Australia with McGrath in the side.

2) Caddick has played against Steve Waugh more (16 matches; 26 innings) and has taken his wicket 8 times. Glenn McGrath has played only 7 Tests (14 innings) against Sachin and has taken his wicket 5 times. So Glenn McGrath is much more likely to take Sachin's wicket than Caddick is to get Steve Waugh's by quite a margin.
I hate to play Devil's Advocate...no wait I don't, I quite like it actually ;) ...

Anyway, you could argue that because Steve Waugh bat's at say 5, and Tendulkar at say 3, McGrath is likely to have bowled more at Sachin (in relative terms), because once an early wicket comes about Sachin is in against the new ball and McGrath, whereas by the time the Aussie openers have flogged us to death, Waugh has an easier ride.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Well i just want to add something maybe thats why Pakistani bowling department has the most variety and thats why they can be so dangerous, because they get to experiment with the ball and if wasim and waqar are the highest wicket takers in ODIs its because they were allowed to experiment with the ball and espcially Wasim i have seen so many times testing the batsmen, even though the batsman does EXPECT something different everytime its still very UNEXPECTED(if u know what i mean).
Plus they've played a LOT of one-day cricket too. :)

Further, i cant think of any situation or plan on top of my head where a side would allow 6 boundaries in an over just to preserve the game plan ? having watched Aussie cricket, I dont think that was part of their game ever.
No, no, no the game plan wasn't to allow say 5 boundaries in an over. The plan was to bowl in a certain place thinking that it would work eventually, regardles of how many boundries you'd hit.

Look at it this way; Matthew Elliott was a VERY strong player of the hook and pull shots but had a tendency to sky them too. Teams found this out and started to bounce him out. Sure he hit a few sixes but eventually he would hit a catch to fine-leg.

Same with Razzaq. Him hitting several boundaries in an over was just good batting but he won't do it every time. In fact he won't even do it most times. He got away that day but on most other days, putting the ball there would have a better chance of getting him. You don't just dispense with a plan because it doesn't work once.

A more personal example was this; there was one guy who, whilst I was bowling outswinger, edged me three times in a row over third-man for six because he was hitting the ball well and trying to hit me around. I knew he couldn't keep hitting me so I stuck at it and gave him another out-swinger. He took a swing and was caught behind.

Batsmen are human and if they're hitting the ball well, you don't abandon your game-plan and try something different for the sake of it. Glenn McGrath is the master at sticking to a plan and so are guys like Wasim. That's why they get wickets.

Now imagine in that situation we mentioned with Razzaq and McGrath that Glenn bowled a bouncer after he'd been hit for 4 twice. Steve Waugh would have been down there quick-smart to tell him to stick to the plan.

You can't just lose your head because your figures are getting wrecked by a plan which isn't quite working. You've still got to stick at it because as I said, no-one can keep hitting you forever.

Anyway, you could argue that because Steve Waugh bat's at say 5, and Tendulkar at say 3, McGrath is likely to have bowled more at Sachin (in relative terms), because once an early wicket comes about Sachin is in against the new ball and McGrath, whereas by the time the Aussie openers have flogged us to death, Waugh has an easier ride.
You could argue that if it was true. :D Sachin has generally batted at number 4 or 6 (early in his career) against the Aussies (sometimes at 5). But if he HAD batted at 3, it would have been a good point. :D

Seriously it's a valid argument except for the bare fact that he has never batted at number 3 against Australia in Tests. To me, he SHOULD be batting at 3 and I've never understood why ne never did. He has the best technique in the Indian team against seam bowling so if an early wicket falls, he should be next in.
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
TC, the problem that I see with this generalization is that cricketers do not play against each other enough times on international leve (unlike american sports for example) so its just not enough data to make an authentic statement.

Maybe if the two had played 50 tests against each other or something like that, then it would be more accurate.

Razzaq is one example, but even the innings in Aus when Laxman made 160 odd, McGrath got rattled by Laxman's aggression and was bowling short to him, i.e. chaging his gameplan (TC let me know if I remember incorrectly). I do not remember particular innings rihgt now but I have the feeling that McGrath starts bowling short (shorter than he normally does) when he gets hit around. Almost says to the batsman, 'hey you are making me nervous, what you are doing is not written in the script, so go back to whats written in the script, and dont make me nervous!'. That routine he does with his shoulder and pulling the sleeve up, also becomes more intense and more frequent :)

Other bowlers, like Akram, or Amborse, when hit kinda go 'what the hell, I'll show you', and then proceede to almost kill him with a bouncer. I dont see that in McGrath.

BTW, Waqar's attitude over his career peak was te best, if he got hit once, he would go 'sure no problem, you hit me on this full swinging delivery, so I'll bowl you another 5 full and swinging deliveries, and I am bound to get you out on atleast one of them'. Hence the extraordinary s/r and poor economy rate.
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
OK you were right. I was getting confused and Tendulkar has played 125 out of 165 innings at 4, BUT Waugh had played 126 innings at 5 and 75 innings at 6, collecting plenty of not outs along the way. He actually averages 24 in his 49 innings elsewhere, despite being not out in 7 of them.
 

Gotchya

State Vice-Captain
McGrath starts bowling short (shorter than he normally does) when he gets hit around. Almost says to the batsman, 'hey you are making me nervous, what you are doing is not written in the script, so go back to whats written in the script, and dont make me nervous!'. That routine he does with his shoulder and pulling the sleeve up, also becomes more intense and more frequent
Precisely. You just illustrated what i was saying earlier. If its not in the script, I haven't found (I'll say it difeerently) the Australian attack terribly inventive.
 

CricketGuru

School Boy/Girl Captain
Originally posted by Top_Cat
Plus they've played a LOT of one-day cricket too. :)
Well i think they really did experiment more in the Test matches and they used the swings and techniques learned in test matches in the ODI's very effectively like no other bowlers.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Razzaq is one example, but even the innings in Aus when Laxman made 160 odd, McGrath got rattled by Laxman's aggression and was bowling short to him, i.e. chaging his gameplan (TC let me know if I remember incorrectly). I do not remember particular innings rihgt now but I have the feeling that McGrath starts bowling short (shorter than he normally does) when he gets hit around. Almost says to the batsman, 'hey you are making me nervous, what you are doing is not written in the script, so go back to whats written in the script, and dont make me nervous!'. That routine he does with his shoulder and pulling the sleeve up, also becomes more intense and more frequent
That Laxman innings was something out of the box, though. The series was lost, the game was lost and Laxman had nothing to lose so he went for his shots and most of them came off. It was quite a brilliant innings. So in that sense, the pressure was off a little. So who knows; maybe Glenn McGrath was experimenting a little too?

Anyway, I can actually remember the times I've seen McGrath dominated in any form of cricket where someone has won a battle against him. That says something about how seldom it happens. The reason Glenn might get agitated by people not 'sticking to the script' is because he's simply not used to it. :D

Other bowlers, like Akram, or Amborse, when hit kinda go 'what the hell, I'll show you', and then proceede to almost kill him with a bouncer. I dont see that in McGrath.
Ambrose was only like that early in his career. Apparently one particular instance against Boonie (which Boonie documents in his autobiography) where Ambrose got hit around in a one-dayer precipitated the development of the great bowler we saw in the 90's. Boonie hit him for a few boundaries and Curtly just started bowling shorter and shorter, going for more and more runs.

Apparently he learned a valuable lesson that day; stick to the plan and don't lose your head. When Dean Jones asked Curtly to remove his wristband a few years ago, did Curtly lose his head? No. He bowled magnificently and took 5 wickets.

Look, I hate to break to you guys but against the best batsmen you have to sacrifice your pride somewhat to take wickets. If that means bowling boring line and length then so be it. You can't just blast out top batsmen on a whim. Wasim and Waqar where able to do stuff like that quite a bit but there were also other times when they were trying to blast batsmen out that they bowled utter tripe. Anyone else remember when Wasim lost his head in Hobart in 1999? What happened when he had a catch behind the wicket turned down? He bowled a bouncer. It was his fastest ball of the series and it ended up in the gutter at mid-wicket as Gilchrist pummelled it to the fence.

Guys like Curtly were brilliant at not losing their heads in situations like that and settled back into their immaculate line-and-length. It's what builds pressure and takes wickets. Just trying to blast players out is a low percentage way of doing things and you have to be an exceptional bowler to do it all the time.

Precisely. You just illustrated what i was saying earlier. If its not in the script, I haven't found (I'll say it difeerently) the Australian attack terribly inventive.
That's because they don't need to be. The West Indian attack in the 80's wasn't terribly inventive either. They'd put the pressure on with aggressive fields and sit on an immaculate line-and-length until the batsman got out. If a batsman got a reasonable score, it didn't matter a jot because they had faith that their batsmen would do the job. If things didn't go their way, they weren't terribly effective. Anyone remember when Michael Holding booted a stump out of the ground in NZ in 1981?

The West Indians were masters at developing a game plan against a player and relentlessly sticking to it, just as this Aussie team are. If a player gets away, they accepted that because they knew it was going to happen occasionally. Most importantly, as long as the team kept winning, that was paramount.

I mean, the Aussies hammered England by an innings in Adelaide despite Vaughan scoring 177.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice your personal ambitions to be part of a winning team which wins consistently in most conditions. Michael Holding would have taken 350+ Test wickets if he played for anyone else but in sharing the ball with Garner, Marshall and Roberts, he ended with less Test wickets.

I guess the crux of my point is that if your plan A works so well for you in the majority of cases, the need for a Plan B is less. You still need one but if your Plan A works so well, it must be hard to let go of.
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
The reason Glenn might get agitated by people not 'sticking to the script' is because he's simply not used to it.
This is indeed the painful reality; you are right TC.

The West Indian attack in the 80's wasn't terribly inventive either.
Now, I think we are mixing up a few things.

-Sticking to a particular plan as a bowler

-When hit around the aggression takes over and the bowler proceeds to do some physical damage.

-Some people are just not inherently aggressive enough I guess, like McGrath, and the will not get pissed off enough to try to bruise the batsman. Lillee and Thommo were different than McGrath.

The first point is the most important in being a successful bowler as you have very articulately described. No one is better at it than McGrath, no one, atleast I am not, arguing against it.

You are mixing point 1 and 3.

WI greats of yesteryears did follow a plan like McGrath does now, but there was the time when Imran once came into bat and hit Roberts for a four. The next bowl nearly killed Imran! This was Roberts' idea of change of pace, when he would kind of amble into his action, make it look like its a gentle delivery, and then proceeds to bowl the fastest bouncer the batsman has ever faced. The only thing Imran remembers is he took evasive action to save his head, and the ball took a top edge and went for a six. McGrath doesnt have that.

McGrath puts on a tough exterior, and the mean guy persona, but he is not like that naturally I think, he doesnt really enjoy batsmen's blood as maybe Lillee or Thommo did, or the WI guys Roberts, Croft, Holding, Ambrose, and also Wasim did. And did I mention Roy Gilchrist ;) hahaha....

As for waht you were saying about following a game plan, once again let me tell that you are totally spot on.

Wasim and to a lesser extent Waqar (as he did follow a bit of a game plan), kinda took pride in being unpredictable and experimental, and not plaaning in the dressing room as much as other teams have done voer the years. And nothing infuriated me more than this. And nothing illustrates this more than the 1999 Aus/Pak series. Both have around 500/400 wkts in ODI and tons of wkts in tests, but in the 1990s how many memorable series victories do Pakistan have, so whats the use of all these wkts and all the flair. Maybe 1996 england victory might have been the only notable test series victory. If you guys know more I would be interested in learning about it. Maybe I have forgotten.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
You are mixing point 1 and 3.
Ah yes, so I am.

WI greats of yesteryears did follow a plan like McGrath does now, but there was the time when Imran once came into bat and hit Roberts for a four. The next bowl nearly killed Imran! This was Roberts' idea of change of pace, when he would kind of amble into his action, make it look like its a gentle delivery, and then proceeds to bowl the fastest bouncer the batsman has ever faced. The only thing Imran remembers is he took evasive action to save his head, and the ball took a top edge and went for a six. McGrath doesnt have that.

McGrath puts on a tough exterior, and the mean guy persona, but he is not like that naturally I think, he doesnt really enjoy batsmen's blood as maybe Lillee or Thommo did, or the WI guys Roberts, Croft, Holding, Ambrose, and also Wasim did.
At least he wasn't as outwardly aggressive. He's almost silent in his aggression which means you know when you've got him; he yells at you. :D

But yeah, you're right. I don't think Glenn is quite as naturally aggressive as those guys. They revelled in just bowling damn fast. Glenn McGrath, while quite quick, has never been as consistently fast as those guys. He's quite prepared to sacrifice his pace to get a batsman out. Also, he only tries to scare batsmen if it will result in their wicket directly. Guys like Lillee, Marshall etc. were quite outwardly aggressive and liberal in their use of the bouncer.

And did I mention Roy Gilchrist hahaha
Funny you should mention that. I was thinking about that last night; why did you shoose the name of such a nutter? You want to speak of outwardly aggressive people, there's a prime example!

I mean, the guy did 18 months in th joint for stabbing a spectator at a cricket match!

Wasim and to a lesser extent Waqar (as he did follow a bit of a game plan), kinda took pride in being unpredictable and experimental, and not plaaning in the dressing room as much as other teams have done voer the years. And nothing infuriated me more than this. And nothing illustrates this more than the 1999 Aus/Pak series. Both have around 500/400 wkts in ODI and tons of wkts in tests, but in the 1990s how many memorable series victories do Pakistan have, so whats the use of all these wkts and all the flair. Maybe 1996 england victory might have been the only notable test series victory.
Right on. It's been obvious for many years now that for pure talent, those two could bowl the pants of almost anyone. I mean they've both ben magnificent for years. So how many of the wickets they've taken have resulted in series' win for Pakistan? Quite a few but Pakistan have rarely played as a team and consistently won series' and even Tests. In fact, the most poignant time I remember them playing with grit and as a team was in the 1992 World Cup final. That was a complete performance from a brilliant TEAM. They were really playing well, backing each other up etc. and it showed. I swear, if Pakistan could harness that sort of thing more often, they'd be so far above almost anyone it's not funny.
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
The difference between 1992 Wc and after....Imran Khan's leadership. 1989 Wi series was another example, and so was 1982 england series.

Roy Gilchrist.... there hasnt been a more enigmatic character than him in cricket, I remember I had a book about fast bowlers, and me and a freind of mine would just laugh for hours at anecdotes about RG. The best one was when he got hit around by a batsman and in his anger he came in to bowl, passed the stumps, crease, kept on going, and when he was half way down the pitch he hurled the ball towards the batsman's head !! the batsman got so scared that he took refuge next to the square leg ump! Then the batsmen, umpires and eventually even his teammates proceeded to leave the field and there was this one man just standing there, angry at the whole world. He eventually was banned from circket, I think because he burnt the face of his wife....Hall, Girffith, Roberts, Lille, Marshall, Thomson, all took their cue from the man himself, Roy Gilchrist.

BTW, just to make it clear Im nothing like him :)
 

anzac

International Debutant
IMO McGrath is the Richard Hadlee of his generation - a thinking bowler who has sacrificed pace for control....

he also has a few more bonuses going for him - height & bounce, a great attack to partner him so he does not need to get over bowled, a destructive batting line up that allows him to attack, attack minded captains that set encouraging fields to support him, & great domestic international pitches that encourage attacking cricket for both batsmen and bowlers......

:)
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
McGrath such a gun.

Glenn McGrath was hardest player for me to captain: Ricky Ponting : Cricket, News - India Today

"I'd tell him 'that's enough mate, have a rest' and for the next 10 or 15 minutes he'd be walking around with his sleeve over his mouth calling me every name under the sun."

The 41-year-old said that McGrath used to stand down at fine leg and keep abusing the entire crowd just because he was not bowling.

"He'd stand down at fine leg and he'd be abusing all the crowd just because he wasn't bowling," he said.
 
Last edited:

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
What this thread tells me is that Top_Cat was just as good a poster in 2002 as he is now.
 

listento_me

U19 Captain
What is the main reason behind Glenn McGrath's success;

Longevity.

Glenn McGrath will play his 53 consecutive Test match on Friday against England. That's a phenomenal statistic for him because in the top 20 Australian for consecutive Tests, he's the only BOWLER, let alone FAST bowler. The rest of the list are batsmen.

I guess it's not surprising considering he has the ultimate in smoothe, economical actions. He places very little stress on his body in general but virtually none on his back. So it goes a long way to explaining why he's rarely injured.

So yeah, an interesting facet of his game, don't ya think?
I wouldn't label him a fast bowler but yeah, that economical action is a result of hundreds of hours of practice. In fact, that's the real secret: hard damn work.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
I am always amazed at people who say McGrath was not a fast bowler. He was not the fastest like Steyn but he was quite fast. People wouldn't find it difficult to handle him just because he pitched it at a particular spot the way they did. He was a fast medium bowler who had great accuracy and a bit of variation to fox the batsmen. The best fast bowler from the 90s bar none.
 

Top