Prince EWS
Global Moderator
*obligatory plug for Trevor Goddard*
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Eddie Barlow
SillyCowCorner1
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Today's the 50th anniversary of Hanif and his brother Sadiq Mohammad becoming only the second brother pairing to open the batting in tests, 1969.
And the 43rd anniversary of Sadiq and Mushtaq Mohammad becoming only the 2nd brother pairing to score centuries in the same test innings.
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TheJediBrah
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I think there's a difference between disregarding him and having a healthy scepticism
ataraxia
International Coach
Yes, it's 2028.
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
I don’t really have a conclusive ranking of all AR’s atm, that was really just a select few. Based on a (very) cursory glance, I don’t think his batting was a significant enough improvement on Hadlee’s to overcome the bowling difference.
jimmy101
Cricketer Of The Year
So do I. That's why I keep telling people to watch footage of him.
SillyCowCorner1
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Meant to write, 50th
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sure have done. Jack Bond whacked him for four in nearly complete darkness to dump Gloucs out of the 1971 Gillette Cup. Clearly the bloke must have been complete rubbish.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Okay, now go and watch highlights of Mark Waugh batting, look at his non-Test First Class average of 58 and his average after seven Tests of 61 and tell me you wouldn't rate him as one of the best batsmen of all time based on all that if not for what happened when he actually played a lot of Tests.
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jimmy101
Cricketer Of The Year
Eric Hollies once bowled Donald Bradman for a duck. Abdul Razzaq once took 20 runs off a Glenn McGrath over. Jason Gillespie once hit a double ton. Inzamam-ul-Haq once successfully ran a tight single.
Ok, ok. That last one never happened, but what exactly is your point here?
jimmy101
Cricketer Of The Year
I rate Mark Waugh extremely highly. Even higher than Steve Waugh. I'm literally the last guy who rates players on their stats. I also think Graeme Hick & Mark Ramprakash were absolute guns.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
GoodAreasShane
Cricketer Of The Year
I'm a bit conflicted, I am generally of the substance over style viewpoint for batsman, but the other way around with fast bowlers.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
I think fast bowlers are much easier to predict the effectiveness of with an eye test than batsmen so I don't think this is hypocritical per se, but even with the former you still get Mohammad Sami sometimes. I actually think Mohammad Sami is slightly under-rated on CW sometimes (or to put it more accurately, "over-hated", because no-one should really rate him), but the idea that he was the most unlucky person on Earth repeatedly for that period of time and actually roughly as good as Brett Lee doesn't really appeal to me.
I also have more faith in eye tests from people who have watched several entire games featuring a bowler than I do from people who watched a YouTube highlights package or two of their wickets. Wickets almost always look good. Bowling four balls doesn't make highlights packages. The statistical difference between McGrath and Gillespie (longevity aside) is an extra wicket every 170 overs and an extra four ball every 10 overs. We all recognise that McGrath was much better than Gillespie and we can see this with the eye when we watch them play entire Tests/series/years together, but we probably wouldn't spot it with highlights.
I'm not saying Procter wouldn't have been awesome. I'm just saying we don't really know, and unlike Grace's time for example the cricket he did play outside Tests/WSC wasn't really valued as something a cricketer should aspire to be awesome at. And if it was I would like to offer up Ronnie Irani a generation later.
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Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Nah Procter was clearly much better than Irani, but he didn't really perform that much better than Irani at the level he played the bulk of his cricket at. If your argument is "eyes not spreadsheets" then fine but it leads you down some weird paths to the point where you're not going to convince many people you're onto a winner. I'm also not going to convince many people I'm onto a winner with my Siddle>Lillee=Ishant "spreadsheet" but at least I don't pretend I have a hoard of superior cricket watchers behind me with that ****.