Tendulkar/Hobbs vs Marshall/McGrath

[kyear2]

I'll do this for you

Allan Donald
11 matches, 658 runs @ 32.90, 2 hundreds and 2 fifties in 20 innings.

Glenn McGrath
9 matches, 662 runs @ 36.77, 2 hundreds and 5 fifties in 18 innings.

Wasim Akram
7 matches, 395 runs @32.91, 1 hundred and 2 fifties in 12 innings

Curtly Ambrose
3 matches, 289 runs @ 57.80, no hundreds and 3 fifties in 6 innings.

Dale Steyn
8 matches, 675 runs @ 56.25, 4 hundreds and 1 fifty in 14 innings.

Shaun Pollock
12 matches, 834 runs @ 39.71, 2 hundreds and 3 fifties in 23 innings.

Waqar Younis
4 matches, 278 runs @ 39.71, 1 hundred and 1 fifty in 7 innings.

Courtney Walsh
7 matches, 595 runs @ 66.11, 1 hundred and 4 fifties in 10 innings.

James Anderson
14 matches, 804 runs @ 32.16, 1 hundred and 5 fifties in 26 innings.

all the great pacers I can think of, thought about Including in someone like Shoaib or Bond, decided against it.

So I wasn't wrong with regards to the 3 mentioned.

 

[subshakerz]

While those can be used a fairly handy argument for why he's not the GOAT, it's really not a deal breaker here.

Suddenly higher bowling averages for ATGs doesn't matter as much if it's not Imran.

 

[OverratedSanity]

While those can be used a fairly handy argument for why he's not the GOAT, it's really not a deal breaker here.

There are two major reasons why Sachin is seem a a contender for best after Bradman. His longevity being one and his record in the 90's being the other.

The intimation of his record in the 90's is that he was brilliant vs all the great pace attacks in the 90's and I don't recall that being the case.

I'm not going to pretend that I have the numbers in front of me, but from memory as I fight sleep awaiting qualifying in Japan, he averaged in the mid or low 30's in matches featuring Donald, Wasim and possibly McGrath.

How is that any different from any perceived issues with McGrath's record.

Well, one is "record vs a team in matches when a particular player happens to be playing" and the other is simply "record vs a team". Latter is a more significant metric less prone to noise imo.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Suddenly higher bowling averages for ATGs doesn't matter as much if it's not Imran.

Actually hilarious isn't it

 

[Xix2565]

I mean, you can make an argument Kumble was more valuable than Tendulkar.

You absolutely can. It might not be a popular argument, but it's not automatically invalid just because people overrate batting.

 

[Xix2565]

Cool. Like I said, its stupid to compare them imo.

That's fair, but for me if the question is asked I won't dismiss it like that.

 

[kyear2]

Cool. Like I said, its stupid to compare them imo.

I do agree that's it's ridiculously challenging.

the gap is massively exaggerated

Besides Xix2565, don't think anyone is suggesting there's a massive gap.

 

[kyear2]

Suddenly higher bowling averages for ATGs doesn't matter as much if it's not Imran.

Where the **** did I say that.

I literally said those arguments can be used against him as a bowler.

In this scenario Sachin also has similar issues.

I never said it didn't matter.

Not everything is about your favorite ball tamperer.

 

[kyear2]

Actually hilarious isn't it

Was not the argument I was making.

Literally said it matters in the bowling argument.

 

[Xix2565]

Only reason it's really challenging is because of prejudice IMO. The bowlsheviks haven't won the culture war clearly here.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Imo, Crowe was a very underrated hand in Hadlee's greatest triumphs

Here are the 13 Test wins that Hadlee and Crowe shared:



Here are the batting stats of Crowe and Hadlee in those 13 wins:

Crowe:



Astonishingly, Crowe managed just one century (out of his 17 Test centuries) in those 13 wins and I included the match by match list in the above image to show this.

Hadlee:



Not surprisingly, Crowe's batting stats in shared wins are better than Hadlee's but Hadlee's average of 39 cf. Crowe's of 55, his RPI of 32 cf. Crowe's of 44, his four 50s (including a 99!) cf. Crowe's one century and five 50s, and his superior SR of 69.5 cf. Crowe's 45.1 are quite outstanding considering that Hadlee was very much a bowling all-rounder.

Here are the bowling stats of Crowe and Hadlee in those 13 wins:

Crowe:



Hadlee:



Crowe managed one wicket at 89 and a SR of 222.

Hadlee managed 103 wickets (WPM = 7.92) at 13.65 and a SR of 34.3 with 11 fifers and four tenfers.

Now, I'm sure that Crowe's runs were absolutely vital to securing some of those wins (mind you, you can't win without batting) but I think it's fair to say that, statistically speaking at least, his contributions in shared wins were dwarfed by what Hadlee achieved in those wins.

 

[Johan]

Here are the 13 Test wins that Hadlee and Crowe shared:

View attachment 46448

Here are the batting stats of Crowe and Hadlee in those 13 wins:

Crowe:

View attachment 46449

Astonishingly, Crowe managed just one century (out of his 17 Test centuries) in those 13 wins and I included the match by match list in the above image to show this.

Hadlee:

View attachment 46450

Not surprisingly, Crowe's batting stats in shared wins are better than Hadlee's but Hadlee's average of 39 cf. Crowe's of 55, his RPI of 32 cf. Crowe's of 44, his four 50s (including a 99!) cf. Crowe's one century and five 50s, and his superior SR of 69.5 cf. Crowe's 45.1 are quite outstanding considering that Hadlee was very much a bowling all-rounder.

Here are the bowling stats of Crowe and Hadlee in those 13 wins:

Crowe:

View attachment 46451

Hadlee:

View attachment 46452

Crowe managed one wicket at 89 and a SR of 222.

Hadlee managed 103 wickets (WPM = 7.92) at 13.65 and a SR of 34.3 with 11 fifers and four tenfers.

Now, I'm sure that Crowe's runs were absolutely vital to securing some of those wins (mind you, you can't win without batting) but I think it's fair to say that, statistically speaking at least, his contributions in shared wins were dwarfed by what Hadlee achieved in those wins.

Obviously, but my point is that while Hadlee did most of the work in his greatest triumphs, Crowe's batting in those games I mentioned was important too and without it Hadlee's work might've been derailed, I'm not saying Crowe is in any sense comparable to Hadlee but my point is entirely that batters and bowlers support each other to varying degrees in great wins, you're unlikely to find singlehanded wins by either imo.

 

[subshakerz]

Where the **** did I say that.

I literally said those arguments can be used against him as a bowler.

In this scenario Sachin also has similar issues.

I never said it didn't matter.

Not everything is about your favorite ball tamperer.

Dude you were caught dead to rights trying to downplay something for McGrath you emphasize day in and day out for Imran.

Why even bother trying to hide it? At least own your hypocrisy

 

[subshakerz]

You absolutely can. It might not be a popular argument, but it's not automatically invalid just because people overrate batting.

Sure but more valuable is not better cricketer.

 

[Coronis]

Obviously, but my point is that while Hadlee did most of the work in his greatest triumphs, Crowe's batting in those games I mentioned was important too and without it Hadlee's work might've been derailed, I'm not saying Crowe is in any sense comparable to Hadlee but my point is entirely that batters and bowlers support each other to varying degrees in great wins, you're unlikely to find singlehanded wins by either imo.

I know you’re not necessarily saying it but lets also not pretend like Reid, Turner and Jones were complete mugs.

 

[Johan]

I know you’re not necessarily saying it but lets also not pretend like Reid, Turner and Jones were complete mugs.

I agree, Coney was also not the worst guy you can have down the order.

 

[govinda indian fan]

So I wasn't wrong with regards to the 3 mentioned.

His record vs two Ws is in 30s because he played them 4 tests vs them in his debut and he didnt play them till next decade and vs donald because he sucked vs sa at home but otherwise brilliant @ sa

 

[govinda indian fan]

Lara doesnt have hundreds vs two Ws and donald. Even the great viv struggled vs hadlee

 

[Johan]

Lara doesnt have hundreds vs two Ws and donald. Even the great viv struggled vs hadlee

I won't say Viv struggled with Hadlee, averages 43 in games where Hadlee played, dominated him at home, away series is contextual and too short to say anything really.

 

[subshakerz]

His record vs two Ws is in 30s because he played them 4 tests vs them in his debut and he didnt play them till next decade and vs donald because he sucked vs sa at home but otherwise brilliant @ sa

Yeah. Also against McGrath he did well in the two full series he played in 99 and 2001, but was playing injured in 2004/5.