Tell me how a Kane Williamson is an ATG?

[Rob Wesley]

Note that I enjoy watching him bat and always wished him to do well and regard him highly as a gentleman of the game. But let’s talk about his career stats.

The true measure of greatness is always your performance away from home vs top teams like Australia, India, England, South Africa ( in this era). This is not the only stats that matter but it is important.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;orderby=batting_average;qualmin2=1500;qualval2=runs;spanmax1=31+Dec+2100;spanmin1=01+Jan+2001;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

You will find pretty much all great players in this list ahead of Williamson. Even the likes of Azhar Ali, Rahane and Chandimal have done better. Now, I don’t claim these names are as good as Williamson but due to his lack of performances away from home vs AISE, I really find it strange that he gets rated above the likes of Crowe, Amla, Younis Cook, Pietersen, Clarke, VVS, Kohli, Inzy etc.

Where would you rate him as a test batter overall?

 

[DrWolverine]

When you have a batting average of 55 in 100+ Tests, it is natural for many people to consider him a legend.

 

[DrWolverine]

Where would you rate him as a test batter overall?

Kane Williamson is a better and more popular version of Mahela Jayawardene.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

****ing yawn. Mentioning Williamson and whether he meets some arbitrary definition of a subjective term should be an intractable offence.

 

[_Ed_]

He's done better in Australia than Joe Root, for what that's worth.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Note that I enjoy watching him bat and always wished him to do well and regard him highly as a gentleman of the game. But let’s talk about his career stats.

The true measure of greatness is always your performances in wins, in the 4th innings, and your century per innings ratio

Agree:

Average in wins (minimum 2,000 runs in wins)
DG Bradman 130
KS Williamson 82
Inzy 78
Sobers 77
Younis Khan 74
Sanga 72
G Chappell 70


Average in 4th innings (min 1,000 runs in 4th)
Boycott 59
Gavaskar 58
Greenidge 53
G Smith 52
Williamson 52

Century per innings ratio: (minimum 30 innings)
Bradman 36.25%
Headley 25%
Walcott 20.27%
Brook 20%
JF Reid 19.35%
Herbert Sutcliffe 19.05%
Weekes 18.52%
Williamson 17.74%

 

[PlayerComparisons]

I think he’ll just be remembered as a good but not great player after he’s retired like Gooch/Gower/Laxman/etc

 

[Rob Wesley]

Kane Williamson is a better and more popular version of Mahela Jayawardene.

That’s exactly true. They are about same level. In Tests, they were home bullies and dominated in one major country away( India for Mahela, Pakistan for Williamson) . Even in ODIs, they have one thing common that is both are clutch batsman and good under pressure.

 

[ataraxia]

There's a little fallacy that happens every time someone's lopsided record gets mentioned. People think of Williamson's record like "he averages 55, and he averages 32 away in XXXX conditions". This treats 55 like the ceiling. It's clearer to think "he averages 32 away in XXXX conditions, and he averages 64 when not in said conditions".

 

[Rob Wesley]

Agree:

Average in wins (minimum 2,000 runs in wins)
DG Bradman 130
KS Williamson 82
Inzy 78
Sobers 77
Younis Khan 74
Sanga 72
G Chappell 70


Average in 4th innings (min 1,000 runs in 4th)
Boycott 59
Gavaskar 58
Greenidge 53
G Smith 52
Williamson 52

Century per innings ratio: (minimum 30 innings)
Bradman 36.25%
Headley 25%
Walcott 20.27%
Brook 20%
JF Reid 19.35%
Herbert Sutcliffe 19.05%
Weekes 18.52%
Williamson 17.74%

Editing my post will not change the reality and if you continue like this, I won’t be keen in responding much. These stats are a result of him playing and scoring heavily against the likes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, West Indies, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Moreover, you are likely to win a lot when you play again them and win games. During Williamson’s career, these countries have not produced a single great test bowler.

I have no problem in his scoring heavily against these opponents because when you score heavily, you increase the chance of dominating them over a test series and not just winning one or two games. But at the same time, when comparing the elite cricketers, performance against top teams away holds key as well. Williamson falls well behind in that regard and hence not really a player who deserves to be rated as highly for me. From his era also, there are number of players who average way higher than him away against top opponents.

 

[Coronis]

Editing my post will not change the reality and if you continue like this, I won’t be keen in responding much. These stats are a result of him playing and scoring heavily against the likes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, West Indies, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Moreover, you are likely to win a lot when you play again them and win games. During Williamson’s career, these countries have not produced a single great test bowler.

I have no problem in his scoring heavily against these opponents because when you score heavily, you increase the chance of dominating them over a test series and not just winning one or two games. But at the same time, when comparing the elite cricketers, performance against top teams away holds key as well. Williamson falls well behind in that regard and hence not really a player who deserves to be rated as highly for me. From his era also, there are number of players who average way higher than him.

Its not like England have had a great test bowler during Williamson’s career either tbf

 

[Rob Wesley]

Its not like England have had a great test bowler during Williamson’s career either tbf

Anderson is definitely a great. And England were a top team during his career.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=win_loss_ratio;spanmin1=01+Jan+2010;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

 

[Rob Wesley]

Performance against top sides away is not an arbitrary definition by any means.

 

[DrWolverine]

Kane Williamson’s away test record(min : 2 tours)
SA : Avg of 21 in 4 Tests
SL : Avg of 29 in 6 Tests
Eng : Avg of 30 in 8 Tests
Ind : Avg of 33 in 8 Tests
Aus : Avg of 41 in 7 Tests

*excluding matches in WI, Zim & Ban

 

[Rob Wesley]

It is very simple to understand. What will you value more - Performance against Windies/SL or performance against Aus/SA/Ind?

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Anderson is definitely a great.

Anderson's home and away records are worse than Williamson's!

 

[Rob Wesley]

Anderson's home and away records are worse than Williamson's!

I am talking about performance vs top teams home and away. Performing vs Windies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe is good but you need to also perform vs very good teams.

 

[OverratedSanity]

10k runs @ over 55 automatically means you're an all timer. It's not like he's only played 2000s bangladesh.

 

[Rob Wesley]

10k runs @ over 55 automatically means you're an all timer. It's not like he's only played 2000s bangladesh.

I am sure if a Mohammad Yousuf got to keep on playing on those flat decks vs WI, BD and Zim, he too would have gotten to 10k runs @ 55.

 

[Rob Wesley]

Another problem with Williamson is that out of his 9200 tests runs, only 1540 came vs SENAI away. It is not even a case of average getting down due to longevity( which you can understand in few cases).