Sutcliffe. Hutton. Gavaskar.

[shortpitched713]

He has Hayden over Sachin

You all need to chill on this. I used to think this, but revised my opinion.

I don't think Sachin's quality is able to separate him from others he was contemporary to (Lara, Sangamon, Kalis, etc), but especially when considering longevity I'd definitely have him a bit over at least Hayden.

 

[DrWolverine]

@shortpitched713
Sachin & Hayden in the same sentence.
I do not get it at all

 

[shortpitched713]

Also, considering this thread more directly, I'd have Hayden at about the same level as Hutton, with both a little below Gavaskar.

Like it or not, Hutton faced meaningfully lower quality bowling than Hayden. He'll, push come to shove I'd still take Hayden if I could only have 1, for that reason, but it's rather close.

 

[Johan]

Also, considering this thread more directly, I'd have Hayden at about the same level as Hutton, with both a little below Gavaskar.

Like it or not, Hutton faced meaningfully lower quality bowling than Hayden. He'll, push come to shove I'd still take Hayden if I could only have 1, for that reason, but it's rather close.

**** outta here, Hayden smashed nothing bowlers on flat decks and made a career out of it.

 

[shortpitched713]

@shortpitched713
Sachin & Hayden in the same sentence.
I do not get it at all

Hayden smash puny bowlers, Hayden is strongest there is!

 

[shortpitched713]

**** outta here

Aren't you the one that believes older time bowlers were meaningfully slower (a position I agree with).

Citing bowling averages of Hayden contemporary bowlers would be a straw man, because it doesn't account for Era. Hayden's Era adjusted average still blows many modern opening bats out of the water.

 

[Johan]

Aren't you the one that believes older time bowlers were meaningfully slower (a position I agree with).

Citing bowling averages of Hayden contemporary bowlers would be a straw man, because it doesn't account for Era. Hayden's Era adjusted average still blows many modern opening bats out of the water.

Nah that's just my immeasurable hatred for 70s and 80s Cricket showing.

And No, Hutton's 1950-51 Ashes is the greatest tour of Australia in history against the second strongest pace bowling unit in history, Hayden has nothing of that short against anyone anywhere, neither do the other two guys here

 

[shortpitched713]

Nah that's just my immeasurable hatred for 70s and 80s Cricket showing.

And No, Hutton's 1950-51 Ashes is the greatest tour of Australia in history against the second strongest pace bowling unit in history, Hayden has nothing of that short against anyone anywhere, neither do the other two guys here

Doubt

 

[Johan]

Doubt

Can't think of any pace attack in history that eclipses Peak Lindwall + Miller + Pre Knee explosion Johnston.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Can't think of any pace attack in history that eclipses Peak Lindwall + Miller + Pre Knee explosion Johnston.

Marshall+Holding+Garner+Roberts

 

[Johan]

Marshall+Holding+Garner+Roberts

And No, Hutton's 1950-51 Ashes is the greatest tour of Australia in history against the second strongest pace bowling unit in history, Hayden has nothing of that short against anyone anywhere, neither do the other two guys here

You should know by now I plan for every contingency.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Marshall+Holding+Garner+Roberts

Marshall + Ambrose + Walsh + Bishop was pretty good too

 

[Johan]

who thinks so much about quartets, just say the Mighty WI pace attack and be done with it

 

[DrWolverine]

Roberts + Holding + Croft + Garner
Roberts + Holding + Marshall + Garner
Marshall + Patterson + Ambrose + Bishop
Marshall + Patterson + Ambrose + Walsh
Patterson + Bishop + Ambrose + Walsh

 

[kyear2]

Also, considering this thread more directly, I'd have Hayden at about the same level as Hutton, with both a little below Gavaskar.

Like it or not, Hutton faced meaningfully lower quality bowling than Hayden. He'll, push come to shove I'd still take Hayden if I could only have 1, for that reason, but it's rather close.

Did he though?

 

[Johan]

So the only pace attack meaningfully above the Invincibles ones is the Mighty Windies attacks, heh.

 

[shortpitched713]

Did he though?

Quicks were slower, spinners got less velocity and rip. This is a big difference in quality, especially if you look at the 4/5 bowlers. Players of Hutton's caliber could defend well enough against the better bowlers and wait to feast on them, because they weren't remotely Test standard.

People don't like to hear it, but the game really changed in the 70s with a dominant strategy of bowling based around consistent pace and aggression to really put batsmen in physically more difficult situations more often. The overall approach for the vast majority of Test level bowling attacks hasn't really changed much since then.

 

[Johan]

People don't like to hear it, but the game really changed in the 70s with a dominant strategy of bowling based around consistent pace and aggression to really put batsmen in physically more difficult situations more often. The overall approach for the vast majority of Test level bowling attacks hasn't really changed much since then.

Just because people have a weird fetish for Lillee and Viv to bangs their brains out doesn't mean Cricket changed in the 1970s. The Decade is so overrated for Cricket it's straight up comical, there are more tangible developments and differences in last 10 years than between 70s and 50s.

Anyway, when Hayden made his 203, India's 4th/5th bowlers were

1. Nilesh Kulkari (166)
2. Sairaj Bahatule (67)

In 2008 When Hayden made three hundreds against India, their fourth and fifth bowling options were.

1. RP Singh (42)
2. Saurav Ganguly (52)

in 2003 When Hayden made three hundreds against England, England's fourth and fifth bowlers were

1. Ashley Giles (40)
2. Craig White (38)

I'm not even gonna mention Sri Lanka.

South Africa's fifth options in 2002 when Hayden made 3 hundreds was

1. Lance Kluesener (38)

Hmmm, so test standard. Now looking at Hutton's big serieses

1950 Ashes, fourth and fifth bowlers were

1. Ian Johnson (29)
2. John Iverson (15) [19 in FC]

1947 ashes last two games

1. Colin McCool (26)
2. Bruce Dooland (46)
3. George Tribe (165) [didn't play much but 20 in FC with 1000+ wkts]
4. Ian Johnson (29)

1953 Ashes

1. Richie Benaud (27)
2. Alan Davidson (20) [Young]
3. Douglas Ring (37)

West Indies 1954-55

1. Denys Atkinson (35)
2. Frank Worrell (38)
3. Frank King (39)

Doesn't look like much of a difference.

 

[kyear2]

Roberts + Holding + Croft + Garner
Roberts + Holding + Marshall + Garner
Marshall + Patterson + Ambrose + Bishop
Marshall + Patterson + Ambrose + Walsh
Patterson + Bishop + Ambrose + Walsh

Marshall + Holding + Garner + Walsh

 

[kyear2]

So the only pace attack meaningfully above the Invincibles ones is the Mighty Windies attacks, heh.

McGrath + Gillespie + Lee + Warne
Wasim + Imran + Waqar
Steyn + Ntini + Morkel + Harris + Kallis