Sub-25 Bowling Average - Current players

[Victor Ian]

Well to have a quick look at the figures, my first thought was to compare the period after neutral umpires became a thing in the 90s but before DRS in roughly 2010 (obviously it wasn't introduced the same everywhere, but I remember the 2009 Ashes being one of the last series without it for England). Turned out that the proportion was exactly the same. So bowlers don't actually get more lbws as a result of DRS.

1990-2009: 4203 lbws out of 24905 dismissals (16.9%)

2010 onwards: 2970 out of 17617 (16.9%).

Except that you posted it, I don't believe it. I think we need to look deeper, as I've got an agenda.

 

[PaulLennon]

He averaged under 25 overall outside Australia. He won Australia a series in Pakistan.

Even Murali and Warne had issues in specific countries. Warne: India and WI, Murali: India and Australia. But overall, both averaged well below 30 outside their respective homes. And no matter what, both were always in their teams XI when they traveled overseas. If/when Jadeja/Ashwin can get their average under 30 away, then we can talk. Spinners get a little more leeway for me, than pacemen.

Average under 25 cause of playing in countries like SA and Eng.

Ashwin/Jadeja have won India two series in Australia, series in WI, two series in SL, series in Bangladesh etc. Cummins has done poorly in Bang, Ind and SL and have not managed to make Aus win there.

Ashwin/Jadeja both can't simply play away as Ind plays only one spinner.

Also you are not taking into account their batting.

Ashwin was vital in the 2018 Adelaide test and the 2021 Sydney test.
Jadeja was vital in 2018 Sydney test, 2020 Melbourne test.

 

[PaulLennon]

I think you have a decent point on the overall away stats. Ashwin and Jadeja getting dropped for each other didn't help their case in getting used to the overseas conditions earlier in their career though. Still, I think they both are nailed to go down as ATGs as overall packages, if not just as bowlers.

An interesting stat, though I am not concluding anything out of it.

Averages against non minnows,

Jadeja : 23.95 (excluding BD and AFG)
Ashwin : 23.98 (excluding BD and AFG)
Murali : 24.87 (excluding BD and Zim)
Warne : 25.40 (excluding BD and Zim)

Even among quicks, Imran (24.00 excluding SL) and Waqar (25.16 excluding BD and Zim) have a marginally worse average.

Ashwin and Jadeja's BD are way stronger than Murali-Warne's BD and Zim post 2002-03. Don't think you can count them out. Their averages actually increase if you include BD (but still less than Murali/Warne).

BD have 1-1 series against Aus, Eng, SL and NZ (away).

Murali/Warne era BD was hopeless as was post Flowers/Streak Zim.

 

[PaulLennon]

Any gaps Ashwin/Jadeja have with Murali/Warne are compensated by their batting abilities as overall packages.

They are ATGs in every sense of the word.

 

[Slifer]

Ashwin and Jadeja's BD are way stronger than Murali-Warne's BD and Zim post 2002-03. Don't think you can count them out. Their averages actually increase if you include BD (but still less than Murali/Warne).

BD have 1-1 series against Aus, Eng, SL and NZ (away).

Murali/Warne era BD was hopeless as was post Flowers/Streak Zim.

Warne hardly played Zim/Ban so that point is moot. And if you're going to use that line of reasoning, WI now are way weaker than the lineups Murali/Warne faced. And no team now is remotely as strong especially vs spin as India were from that era. As a matter of fact, on a whole Murali/Warne faced much better batting. India, Australia, WI, Pakistan, RSA, SL were all much stronger batting units in the Murali/Warne era than now.

 

[Slifer]

Any gaps Ashwin/Jadeja have with Murali/Warne are compensated by their batting abilities as overall packages.

They are ATGs in every sense of the word.

The OP is about bowling averages, absolutely nothing to do with batting. And my point is sub 25 is not enough, to be considered in the upper echelon, you also have to be sub 25 away from home. The fact that so few bowlers have managed that speaks volumes.

For spinners, I'd give them leeway and say sub 30 outside of their homes is good enough. I can only think of Murali and Warne who qualify. Coincidentally, those two are considered the S tier standard for spin bowling.

 

[ZK$]

Anderson will average under 25 one day.

 

[Slifer]

Anderson will average under 25 one day.

Maybe, if his body holds up.

 

[ZK$]

Maybe, if his body holds up.

He’s still improving and seems motivated, so injuries are the only thing that’s going to stop him. Since the start of 2014, he averages 21.29 overall and 23.02 outside of England lol.

 

[Slifer]

He’s still improving and seems motivated, so injuries are the only thing that’s going to stop him. Since the start of 2014, he averages 21.29 overall and 23.02 outside of England lol.

Yeah, he certainly has improved greatly outside of England. Impressive body of work.

 

[Victor Ian]

Well to have a quick look at the figures, my first thought was to compare the period after neutral umpires became a thing in the 90s but before DRS in roughly 2010 (obviously it wasn't introduced the same everywhere, but I remember the 2009 Ashes being one of the last series without it for England). Turned out that the proportion was exactly the same. So bowlers don't actually get more lbws as a result of DRS.

1990-2009: 4203 lbws out of 24905 dismissals (16.9%)

2010 onwards: 2970 out of 17617 (16.9%).

how did you filter this? I cant figure out where to qualify it by lbw in statsguru.

This is quite amazing actually, in a shows how your memory can play tricks on you, as it just felt to me like lbw's were way more prevalent nowadays, yet when i pulled up a list of best ever lbw wickets by percentages, none of the bowlers there are post drs.

 

[Coronis]

The OP is about bowling averages, absolutely nothing to do with batting. And my point is sub 25 is not enough, to be considered in the upper echelon, you also have to be sub 25 away from home. The fact that so few bowlers have managed that speaks volumes.

For spinners, I'd give them leeway and say sub 30 outside of their homes is good enough. I can only think of Murali and Warne who qualify. Coincidentally, those two are considered the S tier standard for spin bowling.

Some other notable spinners (min 50 wickets away) O’Reilly, Grimmett, Benaud (all under 25), Tayfield, Verity, Underwood, Laker, Gibbs, Ajmal

 

[Ali TT]

I grew up watching cricket in the 90s/early 00s when it felt like their was a surfeit of all time great bowlers, especially quicks but also Warne, Murali, Kumble. Nostalgia might well have a lot to do with it, but I'm not convinced the list in the OP matches up with the bowlers around then. Batters don't currently have the defensive skills to resist for a long time, so wickets come more frequently. Home advantage has also become more pronounced with touring batting lineups regularly getting routed as they fail to adapt to unfamiliar conditions. Possibly a consequence of fewer warm-ups on tour but maybe also that for most young players these days, the only experience they get playing overseas below international level is in T20 leagues.

 

[Victor Ian]

I think there is something there about players no longer having the adaptability of guys in the past, mostly through lack of time to acclimatise.

In the future, I'd like to see Australia schedule tours like this was originally meant to be, where they hit all the Asian teams in a row. The same schedule would work for the Asian teams where they visit the Sena's in a row. It's about the only chance to get competitive tours across these vastly different surfaces and attacks.

Or, just make Sydney spin again. Half our team comes from NSW so that is half a team that would develop a game to be ready for the modern no warm ups tours in Asia.

 

[honestbharani]

In the future, I'd like to see Australia schedule tours like this was originally meant to be, where they hit all the Asian teams in a row.

They did that this time tbf. They went to Pak, then SL and now India.