MasterBlaster24
U19 12th Man
Better test bowler?
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Shaun Pollock vs Fred Trueman
- Thread starter MasterBlaster24
- Start date
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
Very close. I'd give it to Pollock just over Trueman, due to more balanced career in variety of conditions (despite the Australia hole).
Johan
International Coach
for reference, my list was
Marshall
McGrath
Barnes
Hadlee
Ambrose
Steyn
Imran
Trueman
Lillee
Holding
Garner
Donald/Akram
Donald/Akram
Lindwall
Davidson
Bumrah*
Cummins*
Pollock
Walsh
Miller
sayon basak
Cricketer Of The Year
Bumrah and Cummins is not that close, and he made himself clear off Davidson too imo.
Johan
International Coach
Cummins and Davo are more durable than Bumrah, and I think Bumrah will average ~ 21 as his career ends and Cummins 22 or 23 so overall it'd be close but that * is there simply because they can easily change in ranking.
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
You whipped out yours, so I'll show mine.
Murali
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Marshall
Ambrose
Donald
Imran
Garner
Warne
Lillee
Ashwin
Pollock
Trueman
Akram
Johan
International Coach
MasterBlaster24
U19 12th Man
I’d lean towards Trueman here because, while Pollock was a great bowler, I feel his skills were somewhat limited compared to Trueman’s impact and consistency.
sayon basak
Cricketer Of The Year
Pretty sure you rate Philander somewhere in there.
Johan
International Coach
what are you doing man, why is the minnow basher spinner at top
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Johan
International Coach
similar quality/skill, can handle higher workload (158BPI vs 138BPI, Barnes can likely go to 175+ BPI) and better general peer reception relative to peers.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
My list and justification for position:
1. Marshall - high peer rating, least flawed record, had mastery of all the essential tools of a pace bowler
2. McGrath - most impressive longevity of any ATG pacer, just behind Marshall due to lack of pace and slight blemishes in SC, super high peer rating
3. Hadlee - allround top tier record, only slightly behind McGrath due to peer rating, lack of success in WI and more concentration in NZ, Eng and Aus
4. Steyn - allround impressive, most destructive when on song, only behind Hadlee due to certain inconsistency and not as impressive in Aus and Eng
5. Imran - allround impressive, record against WI and greatest peak gets him into top 5, only behind Steyn due to Steyn's decade long longevity of peak
6. Warne - allround fairly impressive but more limited in certain conditions and against top bats who dominated him unlike Imran
7. Murali - allround fairly impressive, just behind Warne because of lack of success in Aus and generally a more defensive bowler
8. Lillee - as skilled in application as almost any fast bowler aside from Marshall and successful all stages of career, but lack of success in certain regions on his CV unlike Murali
9. Ambrose - relentless accuracy but behind Lillee due to penetration issues for half of his career and somewhat low output
10. Wasim - generally successful across conditions, super high peer rating and especially Australia but behind Ambrose due to lack of concentrated success away in countries he should have done better in, not quite as destructive
1. Marshall - high peer rating, least flawed record, had mastery of all the essential tools of a pace bowler
2. McGrath - most impressive longevity of any ATG pacer, just behind Marshall due to lack of pace and slight blemishes in SC, super high peer rating
3. Hadlee - allround top tier record, only slightly behind McGrath due to peer rating, lack of success in WI and more concentration in NZ, Eng and Aus
4. Steyn - allround impressive, most destructive when on song, only behind Hadlee due to certain inconsistency and not as impressive in Aus and Eng
5. Imran - allround impressive, record against WI and greatest peak gets him into top 5, only behind Steyn due to Steyn's decade long longevity of peak
6. Warne - allround fairly impressive but more limited in certain conditions and against top bats who dominated him unlike Imran
7. Murali - allround fairly impressive, just behind Warne because of lack of success in Aus and generally a more defensive bowler
8. Lillee - as skilled in application as almost any fast bowler aside from Marshall and successful all stages of career, but lack of success in certain regions on his CV unlike Murali
9. Ambrose - relentless accuracy but behind Lillee due to penetration issues for half of his career and somewhat low output
10. Wasim - generally successful across conditions, super high peer rating and especially Australia but behind Ambrose due to lack of concentrated success away in countries he should have done better in, not quite as destructive
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah I like to justify why I place certain players where.
Johan
International Coach
1. Malcolm Marshall – The most complete paceman of them all, almost no flaws. Express, Skilled with cutters, ATG in Subcontinent or England. He is like if you combine the relentless ferocity of Dale Steyn with the mind of a Glenn McGrath. No flaws that I can notice.
2. Glenn McGrath – The bowling supercomputer, successful in any condition, could take the wickets out of the equation, was a dominant force in the most batting dominated era of the game and was the key to the dynasty, definitely the second most flawless record among the pacers. His only real flaw would be the record against South Africa at home which can also be put down to sample size.
3. Sydney Barnes – The average of 16 does the guy justice, can bowl as many as a spinner like Maurice Tate or Alec Bedser, but due to the mastery of swing bowling, he has the pluses of Warne and Murali without their negatives as he wasn't weak on day 1 and 2. Well into his 50s, he was on the same level of bowling as world class bowlers like Harold Larwood and Maurice Tate, another absurd feat.
4. Richard Hadlee – carried a country through a decade and made them unbeatable at home. The greatest touring bowler of Australia in history, won games in England, won games In India, won games at home, Amazing record, I'd have preffered if he got more tours to West Indies but whatever.
5. Curtly Ambrose – maybe controversial but I think he was one of the greatest to ever bowl in West Indies, England and Australia, other than his debut series and one series where he was unhealthy, averages 20. Sadly unproven in Asia a bit.
6. Dale Steyn – One of the most destructive pacemen of all time, really hard to play in a lot of countries and contexts, should've been more destructive outside of Asia but the stuff he did in India is elite ATG, He might go higher in the ranking one day
7. Imran Khan – Genius, performed everywhere, match winning contributions in Australia, in England, in West Indies and so forth. Great work is a little peak concentrated (1980-1986) but arguably with Barnes, it's the greatest bowling peak in history of the game so it doesn't even matter.
8. Fred Trueman – Express pace, and a genius, and the most destructive fast bowler of all time. Transcends his era in terms of SR and Wickets-Per-Match and Wickets-Per-inning, was a world class bowler from 1952 to 1964, 12 whole years and one of the first actual fast guys to maintain world class quality for that long. Destroyed good batting, won England the first series in West Indies in decades, saved the 1962-63 Ashes from being an Australian victory. Mostly downgraded by misinformation on this site. Sadly didn't play enough away.
9. Dennis Lillee – one of the first true modern fast bowlers, Exception in England, exceptional at home, very good in the West Indies and extremely high peer reputation. Sadly didn't play in Asia much, and had his struggles with the stronger batting lineups of the West Indies and Pakistan. Immense workhorse, 5+ WPM for a pacer.
10. Michael Holding – Extremely high on skill but can't put him above the two right above him due to the sheer difference in durability. One of the best ever to tour England, one of the best ever to tour Australia, one of the best ever to tour India. Also, the fastest in my top ten alongside pre 1962 Trueman and Pre Back Injury Lillee.
2. Glenn McGrath – The bowling supercomputer, successful in any condition, could take the wickets out of the equation, was a dominant force in the most batting dominated era of the game and was the key to the dynasty, definitely the second most flawless record among the pacers. His only real flaw would be the record against South Africa at home which can also be put down to sample size.
3. Sydney Barnes – The average of 16 does the guy justice, can bowl as many as a spinner like Maurice Tate or Alec Bedser, but due to the mastery of swing bowling, he has the pluses of Warne and Murali without their negatives as he wasn't weak on day 1 and 2. Well into his 50s, he was on the same level of bowling as world class bowlers like Harold Larwood and Maurice Tate, another absurd feat.
4. Richard Hadlee – carried a country through a decade and made them unbeatable at home. The greatest touring bowler of Australia in history, won games in England, won games In India, won games at home, Amazing record, I'd have preffered if he got more tours to West Indies but whatever.
5. Curtly Ambrose – maybe controversial but I think he was one of the greatest to ever bowl in West Indies, England and Australia, other than his debut series and one series where he was unhealthy, averages 20. Sadly unproven in Asia a bit.
6. Dale Steyn – One of the most destructive pacemen of all time, really hard to play in a lot of countries and contexts, should've been more destructive outside of Asia but the stuff he did in India is elite ATG, He might go higher in the ranking one day
7. Imran Khan – Genius, performed everywhere, match winning contributions in Australia, in England, in West Indies and so forth. Great work is a little peak concentrated (1980-1986) but arguably with Barnes, it's the greatest bowling peak in history of the game so it doesn't even matter.
8. Fred Trueman – Express pace, and a genius, and the most destructive fast bowler of all time. Transcends his era in terms of SR and Wickets-Per-Match and Wickets-Per-inning, was a world class bowler from 1952 to 1964, 12 whole years and one of the first actual fast guys to maintain world class quality for that long. Destroyed good batting, won England the first series in West Indies in decades, saved the 1962-63 Ashes from being an Australian victory. Mostly downgraded by misinformation on this site. Sadly didn't play enough away.
9. Dennis Lillee – one of the first true modern fast bowlers, Exception in England, exceptional at home, very good in the West Indies and extremely high peer reputation. Sadly didn't play in Asia much, and had his struggles with the stronger batting lineups of the West Indies and Pakistan. Immense workhorse, 5+ WPM for a pacer.
10. Michael Holding – Extremely high on skill but can't put him above the two right above him due to the sheer difference in durability. One of the best ever to tour England, one of the best ever to tour Australia, one of the best ever to tour India. Also, the fastest in my top ten alongside pre 1962 Trueman and Pre Back Injury Lillee.
Marshall
Hadlee
Mgrath
Akram
Steyn
Ambrose
Warne
Murali
Donald
Imran
Lillee
Trueman
Bumrah
Garner
Holding
Lindwall
Davidson
Pollock
Cummins
O’Reilly
I obviously have a different view of Akram than most but most people fixate on his average and not how dominant he was for so long before he tailed away.
Hadlee
Mgrath
Akram
Steyn
Ambrose
Warne
Murali
Donald
Imran
Lillee
Trueman
Bumrah
Garner
Holding
Lindwall
Davidson
Pollock
Cummins
O’Reilly
I obviously have a different view of Akram than most but most people fixate on his average and not how dominant he was for so long before he tailed away.