Pick the Best All-Rounder Combos

[Pap Finn Keighl]

He didn't average as much and scored those in more innings. But the main point is a better quality bat ends up in the top 6.

33 vs 31
Gap in number of innings also negligible

 

[Coronis]

33 vs 31
Gap in number of innings also negligible

So you agree, he averaged less. And 20+ innings is not negligible lol.

 

[subshakerz]

I am not commenting on PFK's argument as I believe Botham to atleast be a tier above Kapil Dev as a batsman; but better quality bat ends up in top 6 isn't really a good argument. For once, that depends much on the relative batting strength of their individual teams and you also have to factor in that a batsman batting at 6 can infact be worse than another team's no 7. There are much better arguments for Botham's superiority.

Yes it depends on the relative quality of the batting sides. But I tend to have more confidence in bats who accomplished their runs up the order.

It's like adjusting from a high bounce pitch to a low bounce pitch. Far easier for a middle order bat to take a lower order role than the reverse IMO.

A specialist no. 7/8 may be good at smacking tired bowlers around towards the end of the innings but I don't think his skills are suited towards innings-building knocks.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

So you agree, he averaged less. And 20+ innings is not negligible lol.

Its enough to decide who is better, not enough to put them in different leagues. Its very close, especially when considering one batted one position higher where the opportunities are more to score big. Add to that, Kapil's extra fast scoring and overall quality of opponents.

 

[ma1978]

Its enough to decide who is better, not enough to put them in different leagues. Its very close, especially when considering one batted one position higher where the opportunities are more to score big. Add to that, Kapil's extra fast scoring and overall quality of opponents.

your arguing with a bunch of stats nerds who’ve never actually watched Kapil or Botham.

both were in their times super exciting batsmen to watch.

Botham was a better at the beginning of his career and worse than Kapil at the end. The averages probably reflect the reality that Botham was marginally better. This is probably counteracted to some extent that Kapil did it a lot more against the Windies. There’s very little in it.

 

[subshakerz]

your arguing with a bunch of stats nerds who’ve never actually watched Kapil or Botham.

both were in their times super exciting batsmen to watch.

Botham was a better at the beginning of his career and worse than Kapil at the end. The averages probably reflect the reality that Botham was marginally better. This is probably counteracted to some extent that Kapil did it a lot more against the Windies. There’s very little in it.

Here is Botham's career breakdown:
First 51 Tests 2833 runs 38.80 /231 wickets 23.06
Next 37 Tests 1976 runs 31.36 /135 wickets 33.85
Last 14 Tests 391 runs 20.570/17 wickets 57.52
Career 5200 runs 33.54/ 383 wickets 28.40

Here is Kapil's career breakdown:
First ten Tests 510 runs 42.50 / 29 wickets 39.06
Next 52 Tests 1973 runs 27.40 / 218 wickets 26.19
Next 69 Tests 2765 runs 32.52 / 187 wickets 32.2
Career 5248 runs 31.05 / 434 wickets 29.64

So it's clear that Botham was higher quality as a test standard middle order bat and worldclass bowler for a significantly long early career half, then pretty much Kapil median level for another fairly long period, and was only crap towards the end for a short time which brought his figures towards parity with Kapil.

Botham had much higher highs which he maintained for well over half a career, and his lower lows was just a tailend.

Whereas Kapil never really achieved highs for any significant period of time and was mostly limited to a range of goodish.

Based on that, Botham clearly to me is another level batting-wise and I also give him the edge in bowling too though not so sure. Maintaining the higher ceiling does that.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Here is Botham's career breakdown:
First 51 Tests 2833 runs 38.80 /231 wickets 23.06
Next 37 Tests1976 runs 31.36 /135 wickets 33.85
Last 14 Tests391 runs 20.570/17 wickets 57.52
Career 5200 runs 33.54/ 383 wickets 28.40

Here is Kapil's career breakdown:
First ten Tests 510 runs 42.50 / 29 wickets 39.06
Next 52 Tests 1973 runs 27.40 / 218 wickets 26.19
Next 69 Tests 2765 runs 32.52 / 187 wickets 32.2
Career 5248 runs 31.05 / 434 wickets 29.64

So it's clear that Botham was higher quality as a test standard middle order bat and wordlclass baller for a significantly long early career half, then pretty much Kapil median level for another fairly long period, and was only crap towards the end for a short time which brought his figures towards parity with Kapil.

Botham had much higher highs which he maintained for well over half a career, and his lower lows was just a tailend.

Whereas Kapil never really achieved highs for any significant period of time and was mostly limited to a range of goodish.

Based on that, Botham clearly to me is another level batting-wise and I also give him the edge in bowling too. Maintaining the higher ceiling does that.

That's quite a disingenuous way to rate players and pretend Botham's ****ty career end as a footnote.

 

[subshakerz]

That's quite a disingenuous way to rate players and pretend Botham's ****ty career end as a footnote.

No, it counts, but it was a relatively small portion of his overall career.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No, it counts, but it was a relatively small portion of his overall career.

Firstly, you broke up their careers however you liked. Botham averaged around 18 for with ball for his first 3 years (25 odd Tests) and went downhill massively since. Secondly, on removing a couple of Kapil's early and late years surely helps his case as well; No?? Not to mention the fact that throughout the whole of 1980s, which was basically their career chunk, both played a couple of years in the other decades only; Kapil Dev averaged 4 runs less per wicket than Botham with more wickets.

 

[ma1978]

Here is Botham's career breakdown:
First 51 Tests 2833 runs 38.80 /231 wickets 23.06
Next 37 Tests 1976 runs 31.36 /135 wickets 33.85
Last 14 Tests 391 runs 20.570/17 wickets 57.52
Career 5200 runs 33.54/ 383 wickets 28.40

Here is Kapil's career breakdown:
First ten Tests 510 runs 42.50 / 29 wickets 39.06
Next 52 Tests 1973 runs 27.40 / 218 wickets 26.19
Next 69 Tests 2765 runs 32.52 / 187 wickets 32.2
Career 5248 runs 31.05 / 434 wickets 29.64

So it's clear that Botham was higher quality as a test standard middle order bat and worldclass bowler for a significantly long early career half, then pretty much Kapil median level for another fairly long period, and was only crap towards the end for a short time which brought his figures towards parity with Kapil.

Botham had much higher highs which he maintained for well over half a career, and his lower lows was just a tailend.

Whereas Kapil never really achieved highs for any significant period of time and was mostly limited to a range of goodish.

Based on that, Botham clearly to me is another level batting-wise and I also give him the edge in bowling too though not so sure. Maintaining the higher ceiling does that.

this is so deeply analytically unsound, I don’t know what to say. It’s just cherry picking numbers to prove a dubious point

 

[subshakerz]

Firstly, you broke up their careers however you liked. Botham averaged around 18 for with ball for his first 3 years (25 odd Tests) and went downhill massively since. Secondly, on removing a couple of Kapil's early and late years surely helps his case as well; No?? Not to mention the fact that throughout the whole of 1980s, which was basically their career chunk, both played a couple of years in the other decades only; Kapil Dev averaged 4 runs less per wicket than Botham with more wickets.

I took that breakdown from Cricinfo but I can see why they broke it down that way.

In Bothams case, he was still producing quality allround stuff even after his 25 tests, including the 81 Ashes. But it was clear after the 86 Ashes that he had no gas left in the tank and his career nosedived then. What you are missing is that his trash period was relatively small in terms of his overall career.

In Kapil's case, it mostly aligns with his respective bowling start, peak and plateau.

 

[subshakerz]

this is so deeply analytically unsound, I don’t know what to say. It’s just cherry picking numbers to prove a dubious point

Provide your own career stage breakdown.

 

[ma1978]

Provide your own career stage breakdown.

Id break their careers in halves but I can’t be areas to go to statsguru.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I took that breakdown from Cricinfo but I can see why they broke it down that way.

In Bothams case, he was still producing quality allround stuff even after his 25 tests, including the 81 Ashes. But it was clear after the 86 Ashes that he had no gas left in the tank and his career nosedived then. What you are missing is that his trash period was relatively small in terms of his overall career.

In Kapil's case, it mostly aligns with his respective bowling start, peak and plateau.

After his first 25 Tests, his overall Test bowling average is 33+. That's basically his 3/4th career. Too big of an inconsistency. He still had moments of brilliance like the 81 Ashes; but I would hardly place that Botham over Flintoff.

 

[subshakerz]

After his first 25 Tests, his overall Test bowling average is 33+. That's basically his 3/4th career. Too big of an inconsistency. He still had moments of brilliance like the 81 Ashes; but I would hardly place that Botham over Flintoff.

But that isn't how career breakdowns work. For example, Viv had his peak and then a mid middling period until 1988 which was his last worldclass performance, after which he nosedived. Same with Botham whose last relatively quality allround performance was in the 86 Ashes after which he was genuinely bad

 

[ma1978]

But that isn't how career breakdowns work. For example, Viv had his peak and then a mid middling period until 1988 which was his last worldclass performance, after which he nosedived. Same with Botham whose last relatively quality allround performance was in the 86 Ashes after which he was genuinely bad

that’s why we look at aggregates and Botham’s aggregates are marginally better, butcontextually impacted by his poor performance against why Windies both on an absolute and relative basis.

None of this is to knock Botham. He’s one ofmy favorite cricketers of all time. Just to say Kapil was every bit the star Botham was.

 

[subshakerz]

that’s why we look at aggregates and Botham’s aggregates are marginally better, butcontextually impacted by his poor performance against why Windies both on an absolute and relative basis.

None of this is to knock Botham. He’s one ofmy favorite cricketers of all time. Just to say Kapil was every bit the star Botham was.

I don't mind looking at aggregates but I like to see the career breakdowns to understand how good they were for what period of their career.

 

[subshakerz]

After his first 25 Tests, his overall Test bowling average is 33+. That's basically his 3/4th career. Too big of an inconsistency. He still had moments of brilliance like the 81 Ashes; but I would hardly place that Botham over Flintoff.

But let's use the 25 test peak. After that until his last good series in the Ashes in 1986/7, which is basically his middling mid-career, he still averaged 33 with the bat.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So based on that breakdown, he would be much better than Kapil's standard with the bat for 1/4th of his career, slightly better for 2/3rds of his career and much worse for the remaining short tailend portion.

I am only reluctant to use the 25 test peak knowing that after that he had the 81 Ashes plus a double ton and a couple of good series in 82.

 

[capt_Luffy]

But that isn't how career breakdowns work. For example, Viv had his peak and then a mid middling period until 1988 which was his last worldclass performance, after which he nosedived. Same with Botham whose last relatively quality allround performance was in the 86 Ashes after which he was genuinely bad

Viv was never truly 'bad' unlike Botham. Not to mention it's a huge reason why I rank Sunny over Viv. And probably that's our difference; you value peaks more; I give troughs close to equal importance.

 

[capt_Luffy]

But let's use the 25 test peak. After that until his last good series in the Ashes in 1986/7, which is basically his middling mid-career, he still averaged 33 with the bat.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So based on that breakdown, he would be much better than Kapil's standard with the bat for 1/4th of his career, slightly better for 2/3rds of his career and much worse for the remaining short tailend portion.

Who is talking about batting? I already mentioned he is a tier above Kapil for me in that department.