Pick the Best All-Rounder Combos

[capt_Luffy]

Curious then, if Bumrah has a big decline, would that change?

Depends how big of a decline we are talking about. He plays 100 more Tests and averages 35 (which isn't practical); then it would be idiotic not to. If he manages only 15 more Tests at 40; he would still drop significantly in my ratings, below Kapil or not is situational.

 

[Victor Ian]

Is it? If we always took players in their prime then isn't Waqar Younis a better bowler than Wasim Akram? Or Brian Lara a better batsman than Sachin Tendulkar?

Totally! I'm always taking waqar.

 

[Coronis]

The numbers favour him slightly. He went from averaging 18 to 34 for the rest part. I have already addressed most of your points I believe. Kapil was bad against England and New Zealand; Botham was against West Indies. That's all there is to it. Kapil wasn't great in Pakistan, but he outballed Imran in India.

Well Botham outperformed Kapil in the matches they played against each other. So you don’t really care about away performances, just stats vs particular opponents?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Well Botham outperformed Kapil in the matches they played against each other. So you don’t really care about away performances, just stats vs particular opponents?

Well, he did that. And no, I care about every kind of performance. Botham averaged 30 away, and majority of his matches were home. Kapil played equal home and away, and averaged 32 away. Botham is too inconsistent for me to really place above Kapil.

 

[Coronis]

Well, he did that. And no, I care about every kind of performance. Botham averaged 30 away, and majority of his matches were home. Kapil played equal home and away, and averaged 32 away. Botham is too inconsistent for me to really place above Kapil.

Who do you think is a better bowler, Walsh or Waqar?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Who do you think is a better bowler, Walsh or Waqar?

Waqar, just barely.

 

[Coronis]

Waqar, just barely.

Similar situation, opposite result

 

[capt_Luffy]

Similar situation, opposite result

Not exactly. Waqar never fell off as hard as Botham did. Had Walsh performed slightly better in Australia; I would had him ahead.

 

[Coronis]

Not exactly. Waqar never fell off as hard as Botham did. Had Walsh performed slightly better in Australia; I would had him ahead.

Yeah but we’re comparing a clearly higher level of bowlers so if he did it wouldn’t be a comparison. Waqar sucked in Australia too, much worse than Walsh.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah but we’re comparing a clearly higher level of bowlers so if he did it wouldn’t be a comparison. Waqar sucked in Australia too, much worse than Walsh.

Waqar is #samplesizelol in Australia. The only reason I rate Waqar ahead is due to reverse swing. And as I said again, that to only slightly.

 

[ma1978]

Well Botham outperformed Kapil in the matches they played against each other. So you don’t really care about away performances, just stats vs particular opponents?

I ask again -if Botham was so much better why are his numbers indistinguishable

 

[Bolo.]

Well, he did that. And no, I care about every kind of performance. Botham averaged 30 away, and majority of his matches were home. Kapil played equal home and away, and averaged 32 away. Botham is too inconsistent for me to really place above Kapil.

Botham was better home than away, but there isn't a huge gap. His away record looks a lot like Kapil's career record. Kapil was a lot more home focused. His away numbers without context make him look pretty bits and pieces.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Botham was much better than Kapil as a batsman but I reckon it's a closer thing when it comes to bowling. Some of Kapils performances against WI are extraordinary, especially that legendary marathon 9fer which should be celebrated way more than it is.

 

[Coronis]

I ask again -if Botham was so much better why are his numbers indistinguishable

Looking at a raw average like that without any context is idiotic.

e.g If I just looked at Viv’s 50.23 average I’d rate him far below where I actually do.

Just because an overall average is the same/similar doesn’t make it equal. Hayden and Viv aren’t close. Rabada and Hadlee aren’t close.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Looking at a raw average like that without any context is idiotic.

e.g If I just looked at Viv’s 50.23 average I’d rate him far below where I actually do.

Just because an overall average is the same/similar doesn’t make it equal. Hayden and Viv aren’t close. Rabada and Hadlee aren’t close.

Wait a minute.....Do you think Kapil and Botham aren't even close??
Ps- Viv and Hayden didn't played against mostly the same teams in the same time ages; neither did Rabada and Hadlee.

 

[ma1978]

Looking at a raw average like that without any context is idiotic.

e.g If I just looked at Viv’s 50.23 average I’d rate him far below where I actually do.

Just because an overall average is the same/similar doesn’t make it equal. Hayden and Viv aren’t close. Rabada and Hadlee aren’t close.

what’s the mitigating context for two people who’s careers overlapped almost exactly. Arguably the only contextual factor is performance against the WI

 

[Coronis]

Wait a minute.....Do you think Kapil and Botham aren't even close??
Ps- Viv and Hayden didn't played against mostly the same teams in the same time ages; neither did Rabada and Hadlee.

That’s not what I said. Relatively I think they are “close” but imo Botham is a better batsman and a bowler, with the batting gap being larger. I don’t think its crazy to rate Kapil as a better bowler, but I disagree inherently with the reasoning you’ve posted. For me, the main reason people should rate him higher is performance vs Windies.

I said looking at raw averages without context is idiotic.

I’ll give some examples of players in the same era then who have similar averages that I don’t think are in the same tier: Richards/Border, Ponting/Yousuf, Amla/Misbah, Marshall/Garner, Lindwall/Miller, Wasim/Waqar, Ashwin/Jadeja

what’s the mitigating context for two people who’s careers overlapped almost exactly. Arguably the only contextual factor is performance against the WI

Have you not read any of my posts in this thread? (would not surprise me)

 

[ma1978]

That’s not what I said. Relatively I think they are “close” but imo Botham is a better batsman and a bowler, with the batting gap being larger. I don’t think its crazy to rate Kapil as a better bowler, but I disagree inherently with the reasoning you’ve posted. For me, the main reason people should rate him higher is performance vs Windies.

I said looking at raw averages without context is idiotic.

I’ll give some examples of players in the same era then who have similar averages that I don’t think are in the same tier: Richards/Border, Ponting/Yousuf, Amla/Misbah, Marshall/Garner, Lindwall/Miller, Wasim/Waqar, Ashwin/Jadeja



Have you not read any of my posts in this thread? (would not surprise me)

yes they are nonsense. Conjecture with nothing to back up

 

[Coronis]

yes they are nonsense. Conjecture with nothing to back up

Considering your post history, that’s a compliment

 

[_00_deathscar]

If we are assuming Botham as an overall cricketer, it means we are getting a no.6 bat who is a steady seamer, albeit inconsistent with both bat and ball but capable of matchwinning performances on his own with both.

Kapil to me was a pure lower order bat but roughly equal as a bowler to Botham, more consistent but less destructive on his day.

In a way he’s like a more amped up Stuart Broad
Except unlike Broad’s inconsistencies, he had very definitive two careers