*Official* Pro-Wrestling Thread II

[Athlai]

Yeah 100%. He's done absolutely nothing of note. I tend to forget he's even there tbh.

It's weird, they did some of the hard work in giving Okada a heel persona that works in the US, and then they just don't use him at all as a main eventer? I've read the plan is Okada vs Omega at All In for July and I've got no idea how that will be a satisfying road currently.

 

[sledger]

It's weird, they did some of the hard work in giving Okada a heel persona that works in the US, and then they just don't use him at all as a main eventer? I've read the plan is Okada vs Omega at All In for July and I've got no idea how that will be a satisfying road currently.

Yeah it's mind boggling. One actually suspects that he'd have had more of an impact/more success if he had opted to go to WWE instead, which is pretty crazy when you think about it.

 

[Arachnödouche2.0]

New (relatively) Bret intie on Austin's podcast is pretty cool. Stone Cold's positively reverent towards The Hitman.

Austin actually brings up Bret's realism in his matches and how he looked like he was in a real fight even with all the choreographed movesets. It's the one quality that I've only grown to appreciate more and more over time and greatly compensates for his lack of personality lol. Only Austin himself came close to depicting that level of verisimilitude from the post-85/90 crop. Shawn, great as he was, could get a bit hammy.

 

[sledger]

Bret's supposed lack of personality is a little overstated a lot of the time imo, mainly because people tend to think not being great at promos = lack of charisma. Bret (and others who faced similar criticisms, like Benoit) actually had quite a lot of personality imo, but they just showed theirs differently. E.g., his Wrestlemania match with Roddy Piper is basically an entire fallen hero/villain redemption story arc, told in like 15 minutes (or whatever it was), without any dialogue, purely conveyed through physical storytelling. And it's really ****ing good to boot. Try doing that without any ****ing personality.

 

[honestbharani]

could get a bit hammy.

I mean almost every time it was intentional on his part. The thing about Shawn was he was able to get a level of emotional investment, mainly due to his style and his size, that perhaps Bret could not. But Bret got you buying into the realism even when he dominated without the flashy moves and he was neither too small nor too big etc.

 

[honestbharani]

Bret's supposed lack of personality is a little overstated a lot of the time imo, mainly because people tend to think not being great at promos = lack of charisma. Bret (and others who faced similar criticisms, like Benoit) actually had quite a lot of personality imo, but they just showed theirs differently. E.g., his Wrestlemania match with Roddy Piper is basically an entire fallen hero/villain redemption story arc, told in like 15 minutes (or whatever it was), without any dialogue, purely conveyed through physical storytelling. And it's really ****ing good to boot. Try doing that without any ****ing personality.

He was also just bloody amazing in his 97 post Mania run till the screwjob. One of the best heels ever IMO. And the whole face-heel switch while working a match etc. When he did buy into what was happening and did the business, he was the best. It was just that every few often he wouldn't coz he took it all and himself too seriously.

 

[sledger]

Yeah Bret was easily the better "wrestler" of the two. (There was a great moment on JR's podcast a few years ago, when Conrad asked him about a time where HBK apparently was considering starting a shoot fight with Bret, to which he basically said "It's just as well that didn't happen, because HBK would be ****ing dead right now if it had" lol.)

But I rank HBK above him overall, simply because he was just great at everything. Shame he was a complete dick for a lot of his career, but hey ho.

 

[honestbharani]

New (relatively) Bret intie on Austin's podcast is pretty cool. Stone Cold's positively reverent towards The Hitman.

Austin actually brings up Bret's realism in his matches and how he looked like he was in a real fight even with all the choreographed movesets. It's the one quality that I've only grown to appreciate more and more over time and greatly compensates for his lack of personality lol. Only Austin himself came close to depicting that level of verisimilitude from the post-85/90 crop. Shawn, great as he was, could get a bit hammy.

I am really wondering if at some point in the near future AEW would get desperate enough to bring Vince in at least as an on-air talent like how the E did with Eric BIschoff.

 

[Athlai]

Bret's supposed lack of personality is a little overstated a lot of the time imo, mainly because people tend to think not being great at promos = lack of charisma. Bret (and others who faced similar criticisms, like Benoit) actually had quite a lot of personality imo, but they just showed theirs differently. E.g., his Wrestlemania match with Roddy Piper is basically an entire fallen hero/villain redemption story arc, told in like 15 minutes (or whatever it was), without any dialogue, purely conveyed through physical storytelling. And it's really ****ing good to boot. Try doing that without any ****ing personality.

Yeah I definitely see "charisma" and "promo ability" as seperate things.

Some people have an aura, ability to physically tell a story and match presence that is completely seperate from their ability to speak.

 

[sledger]

Yeah I definitely see "charisma" and "promo ability" as seperate things.

Some people have an aura, ability to physically tell a story and match presence that is completely seperate from their ability to speak.

Exactly, and I think one of the reasons why I rate HBK so highly was that he was great at both forms of storytelling.

 

[Arachnödouche2.0]

Shawn was confidence personified in front of a camera alright but damn his in-ring delivery reaaally grated on me because of his tendency to sit on a syllable and run it dry. Think someone must've told him while he was coming up that you had to say it slow and succinct for the guys at the back.

 

[Johan]

Shawn definitely had more of a talking ability than Bret but at the end of the point, the point of promos was always to build hype for matches and to progress the story and Bret's stories were always a lot more complex and hyped up then Shawn's (Shawn's reign actively turned people away) so I just think Bret never actually needed a lot of talking skill as he managed to make all his feuds feel amazing without them, by the time he needed it in 1997 he had a lot of it to show and cut some amazing promos.

I've no problem with Shawn's ring work or his promo work but I feel like his character work was kind of clunky and awkward? in mid 90s his face run failed all because the ***y boy character just isn't a face character, and then he randomly started heeling it up, and then he stopped heeling it up, and then he finally turned heel. I never really understood the kayfabe motivations and ideals of Shawn in 95 to 98, simply because he was turning randomly and his character lacked the nuance of the Hitman character. in 2000s, his character work was again awkward to me considering he completely stagnated and legit didn't change characters for 8 years.

as much as I rate Shawn, I don't really think his promo work advantage is enough to overcome Bret's advantage in ctowd connection and character work, you just can't match a character with years of slow development culminating in a heel turn via just turning heel in a promo in August of 1997, for example.

 

[sledger]

I think that all rather ignores all of HBK's post 2004 return work though TBF.

 

[Johan]

I think that all rather ignores all of HBK's post 2004 return work though TBF.

I actually think his 2000s run was kinda stale character work wise bar the Taker feud, but I feel like that just reinforces my argument about it taking Shawn far too long to actually become a compelling character when Bret was pulling it off as early as the Davey Boy feud in 92.

 

[sledger]

I actually think his 2000s run was kinda stale character work wise bar the Taker feud, but I feel like that just reinforces my argument about it taking Shawn far too long to actually become a compelling character when Bret was pulling it off as early as the Davey Boy feud in 92.

I'm not sure I agree tbh. More often than not between his return and his retirement, he had the best match/feud of the night at WM every year. And character work played a big part in that.

 

[Johan]

I'm not sure I agree tbh. More often than not between his return and his retirement, he had the best match/feud of the night at WM every year. And character work played a big part in that.

feel like a lot of the times he had an inbuilt story (Ric Flair "retirement" match lol) or the other guy doing the character work while Shawn plays Shawn Michaels (Chris Jericho match), really think the Taker matches are the one where he really brought out his character work.

 

[sledger]

feel like a lot of the times he had an inbuilt story (Ric Flair "retirement" match lol) or the other guy doing the character work while Shawn plays Shawn Michaels (Chris Jericho match), really think the Taker matches are the one where he really brought out his character work.

Yeah, that's fair enough. I can certainly see that side of the argument, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

 

[Johan]

Yeah, that's fair enough. I can certainly see that side of the argument, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

Fair.

 

[sledger]

Fair.

I am nothing if not fair, Johan.

 

[honestbharani]

I am nothing if not fair, Johan.

Change ur user name to fairer then... even if u wanna spell fair with F U and H.