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***Official*** India in Pakistan

danish

U19 12th Man
SJS said:
I agree with the drift of your post and the point you are trying to make. A minor point is that Kumble is not a regular member of the Indian ODI team, hasnt been for almost two years now and is unlikely to be in the future.

I think Pakistan has plenty of youngsters and they have been blooded too. But by and large these hugely talented youngsters from the amazingly vast and unending reservoir of fresh talent in Pakistan seem to lack maturity a bit more than the Indian youngsters - not talent.

One can only try to speculate on the reasons for the same.

- One could be the lack of a well structrured domestic first class circuit in Pakistan. In India the Ranji Trophy (both limited and one day version), the Duleep Trophy, Irani Trophy etc for seniors, Rohinton Baria Trophy for schools, the college version escapes my tongue just now, Deodhar Trophy for limited overs, the various junior age groups, and the local leagues make for a vast network through which one needs to graduate and competition is tough with good performances galore. I think Indian juniors though not more talented than their Pakistani counterparts, tend to be a bit more sobered by their way up and it shows.

- I also feel the Indian setup, rightly or wrongly, does not push a young debutant into a position of major responsibility till he has served a kind of an apprenticeship during which he matures. Kaif and Yuvraj are examples from recent crops but even the prodigiously talented Sachin Tendulkar was nurtured and batted at number six and seven in tests for 25 months (November 1989 to December 1991) before finally being promoted to number four. The seniors, some of them not fit enough to hold a candle to him took on the responsibility. I can understand that you cant do this with openers but where you can you must.

- In the opening slot India has by and large supported a technically proficient and strong backfoot player. Sehwag is a bit different but even he is fairly strong off the backfoot but yet he is an exception. Thus even though India have struggled with openers they have continued to look for solidity (I am talking tests here) at the top slots and thus we have the Chopras, the Das's, the Bangars of recent times and the feeling that you need to be a Dravid to be a makeshift opener.

The point here is not how successful these openers were (I have admitted that India have struggled to find them) but the approach towards opening the innings. Pakistan seems to favour the beautiful front foot players who love moving the left leg out and driving handsomely through the covers. Almost all the youngsters one has seen in last 3-4 years have looked great driving off the front foot particularly through the off side. They seem to be all made in the same mould and coached by the same guy ! But you hardly see any one who is predominantly a backfoot player and will go back to defend if he cant go forward to drive a half volley. Again this is a tendency and I know there may be exceptions.

You combine all these and you have the recipe, not for disaster but for an inconsistent batting performance - swaying between incandescent strokeplay when the going is good and utterly inept performance in a crisis.

This is Pakistans problem with batting today and this is where Woolmer and Inzy's batting order strategies have made matters worse.
I completely agree with this, the lack of back foot ability in Pakistani opener explains why the Imran Nazirs, the Taufiq Umars, the Imran Farhats were always prone to being caught behind and never being able to put in consistent performances.

One of the reasons for the Pakistanis' lack of maturity is because young players are always thrown into the deep end. In recent years, for some reason, Pakistani management has used test matches as a chance to experiment with new youngsters. Also, because there are very few domestic competitions, players have little experience of playing in serious competition, let alone on the international stage. Also, very few of them have come up through the system from a young age. An example of this is that the Pakistani U-19 team are world beaters, yet I don't think a single one of them has played more than two matches for the senior team.

Bob Woolmer has been extremely good in harnessing the raw talent that the Pakistani players possess, the obvious examples being Salman Butt, Kamran Akmal and Mohammad Asif, and for the first time in a long time, the senior players are being outshone by the younger ones, which is a tribute to Bob Woolmers coaching.

The next match against India I believe is very important in getting Pakistan's confidence back up. I think the team should be as full strength as it can be. If they win it, the series will not have been a complete failure for Pakistan as it would be only one match that separates the teams. If the team can perform well, it will be a good morale booster for the upcoming tour of Sri Lanka.
 
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I hope Pakistan play decent cricket this time around and the match proves to be a thriller with a good Indian win.

4-1 will be a fair result of the series:)
 
Armadillo said:
Announced that Butt and Rana Naveed will not play tomorrow.

Pathan has strongly protested against Butt's exclusion and has withdrawn from the match:p

Rana's contribution in Indian run chase has been tremendous lately, his absence will be a blow.
 

danish

U19 12th Man
vandemataram said:
I hope Pakistan play decent cricket this time around and the match proves to be a thriller with a good Indian win.

4-1 will be a fair result of the series:)
How on Earth can you say that after only 4 matches have been played? Pakistan clearly deserved to win the first match after they chased down 328 and were the better team. India deserved to win the second, third and fourth match because they were the better team, follow my logic? Now, if by some freak of nature, Pakistan beat India tomorrow, then I think everyone here would agree that 3-2 would be a fair result for the series. See, it's not that hard to comprehend when you take the omnipotence of the Indian team out of your mind.
 

danish

U19 12th Man
vandemataram said:
Rana's contribution in Indian run chase has been tremendous lately, his absence will be a blow.
Hmm... I never thought you of all people were one to take away credit from genuinely good Indian batting.
 
danish said:
How on Earth can you say that after only 4 matches have been played? Pakistan clearly deserved to win the first match after they chased down 328 and were the better team. .
Pak didn't chase 328, they made 311 for 7 and were awarded the match due to D/l .Pak had Younis nad Rana on crease then and when umpires asked them if they wanted to continue batting in fading light, they immidiately wen't back to pavillion.The asking rate was such that i think that had match been completed, Pak would have lost it.
 
danish said:
Hmm... I never thought you of all people were one to take away credit from genuinely good Indian batting.
I'm not taking anything away from them, but i'm being fair and am crediting both of them.Crediting Indian bastmen for their great work thoughout the OD series, but at the same time crediting rana for his generous contribution for Indian team.
 

danish

U19 12th Man
vandemataram said:
Pak didn't chase 328, they made 311 for 7 and were awarded the match due to D/l .Pak had Younis nad Rana on crease then and when umpires asked them if they wanted to continue batting in fading light, they immidiately wen't back to pavillion.The asking rate was such that i think that had match been completed, Pak would have lost it.
Errr... that completely and utterly contradicts the effect of the Duckworth and Lewis rule. The reason that Pakistan won is because they kept up with the asking rate and according to the formula, would have won the match had they carried on batting. And Rahul Dravid cannot complain, because he was fined after the match for a slow over rate. Had the Indians bowled their overs faster, the Pakistani batsmen would not have had to play in diminishing light.
 
Well tomorrow will be a SUPER SUNDAY india takes on Pak in the last oneday, while Indian under 19 takes on Pak under 19 in the WC.

It will be great for cricket lovers if India win both the match:) , that will certainly make my day.

For some reason i'm more interested in the under-19 match, maybe coz its a WC while the OD series that India is playing against Pakistan has already won by India and the last match is of little importance.
 
danish said:
Errr... that completely and utterly contradicts the effect of the Duckworth and Lewis rule. The reason that Pakistan won is because they kept up with the asking rate and according to the formula, would have won the match had they carried on batting. And Rahul Dravid cannot complain, because he was fined after the match for a slow over rate. Had the Indians bowled their overs faster, the Pakistani batsmen would not have had to play in diminishing light.
Yes the R/R of pak was good and that why they were declared winners, but i think the kind of batsmen Pak had on crease, they would probably had ended losing the match.Too bad tha match wasn't completed, can't blame Rahul much as this slower rate is now a problem with most teams
 

Armadillo

State Vice-Captain
vandemataram said:
Yes the R/R of pak was good and that why they were declared winners, but i think the kind of batsmen Pak had on crease, they would probably had ended losing the match.Too bad tha match wasn't completed, can't blame Rahul much as this slower rate is now a problem with most teams
Except Australia, Windies, New Zealand....heck every team!
 

danish

U19 12th Man
vandemataram said:
Yes the R/R of pak was good and that why they were declared winners, but i think the kind of batsmen Pak had on crease, they would probably had ended losing the match.Too bad tha match wasn't completed, can't blame Rahul much as this slower rate is now a problem with most teams
Yet I didn't hear of Inzamam being slapped with a 10% fine on his match fee after that match.
 
Armadillo said:
Except Australia, Windies, New Zealand....heck every team!
Well its a problem with Pakistan, India ,Sl and also one or two more teams.

Sometimes its very difficult to go through the overs quickly, i'm not sure if penalties are the only solution for it.
 

Armadillo

State Vice-Captain
vandemataram said:
Pak didn't chase 328, they made 311 for 7 and were awarded the match due to D/l .Pak had Younis nad Rana on crease then and when umpires asked them if they wanted to continue batting in fading light, they immidiately wen't back to pavillion.The asking rate was such that i think that had match been completed, Pak would have lost it.
Younis
ODIs 127 122 15 3296 144 30.80 4404 74.84 1 22 246 26 70 0

Rana
ODIs 40 28 11 247 29 14.52 322 76.70 0 0 20 5 9 0

If both of these players made half of their averages, Pakistan would make it home comfortably.
 
danish said:
Yet I didn't hear of Inzamam being slapped with a 10% fine on his match fee after that match.
I'm not saying that all the teams are slow each and every time, but it keeps happening every now and then.If you think that Inzi has never been fined for slower rate then what can i say really
 
Armadillo said:
Younis
ODIs 127 122 15 3296 144 30.80 4404 74.84 1 22 246 26 70 0

Rana
ODIs 40 28 11 247 29 14.52 322 76.70 0 0 20 5 9 0

If both of these players made half of their averages, Pakistan would make it home comfortably.
Asking run rate was a problem.
 
Armadillo said:
Hardly, 74 and 76 respectively is in the top bracket.
Its different while batting when you are setting up a target than from batting while chasing one.I think while chasing there is a big pressure on batsmen and on such situation batsmen do faulters.I'm not saying that india would have definately won the match, but i think they had real good chance of winning it.
 

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