*Official* England in New Zealand 2019

[theegyptian]

Archer's been playing international cricket for what 7 months?
He was racially abused during the first test.
Never played in NZ before. Never bowled with the red kookaburra before afaik.
At least two catches dropped of his bowling of top order bats that I can remember.
Bowled 7 more overs than any other seamer in the England side in their 201 overs in the field in Maunganui. 8 more than any England bowler across the series.


Yes he wasn't great but I agree with those who say he's getting a raw deal here.

I don't think Root used him particularly well here and Root's general poor captaincy is going to be an issue. Both on the tactical front and the man management front Root tends to be lacking - and during this series at least it didn't look like we were getting the best out of Archer. It's a two way street though so Archer needs to be sure that his efforts are high and keep improving on his game.

I think there is inevitably going to be some tempermental differences between Archer and most of the rest of the players given their upbringings in different cultures. I think the first test he looked a little on his own tbh in the field, I think England did a better job in the second test rallying around him.

 

[Flem274*]

Archer's been playing international cricket for what 7 months?
He was racially abused during the first test.
Never played in NZ before. Never bowled with the red kookaburra before afaik.
At least two catches dropped of his bowling of top order bats that I can remember.
Bowled 7 more overs than any other seamer in the England side in their 201 overs in the field in Maunganui. 8 more than any England bowler across the series.


Yes he wasn't great but I agree with those who say he's getting a raw deal here.

I don't think Root used him particularly well here and Root's general poor captaincy is going to be an issue. Both on the tactical front and the man management front Root tends to be lacking - and during this series at least it didn't look like we were getting the best out of Archer. It's a two way street though so Archer needs to be sure that his efforts are high and keep improving on his game.

I think there is inevitably going to be some tempermental differences between Archer and most of the rest of the players given their upbringings in different cultures. I think the first test he looked a little on his own tbh in the field, I think England did a better job in the second test rallying around him.

it's posts like these that just enhance his rep as a gigantic sook tbh

you make it sound like he needs, and deserves, preferential treatment. that's ridiculous, this is a team and he's expected to contribute to morale as much as the next bloke.

not having this 'different cultures' thing either. england are not the first cricket team to have a foreigner playing for them.

neil wagner went to otago at the bottom of the world barely speaking english and became, well, wagner.

he's not the first bloke to have a tough tour down under and be down on pace after a long season. that's understandable for a rookie.

what is weird is at the slightest suggestion he's phoning it in, being a debbie downer in the field or packing a sad to the media about speed guns, people say he is justified to do these things. no he's not ffs, he's paid six figures in english money to bowl a cricket ball at pace, take wickets and try his best for his team. he needs to shut up and do it. people need to stop making weird excuses for him. would you do this if he had never touched 150kph in his life?

'good, but throws a sook at mild inconvenience' is annoying and noticeable in normal workplaces and i imagine pro cricket teams too.

 

[Spark]

Tbf I dont even have much of a problem with the "body language affects the team" argument even if i dont entirely agree with it. Its when people try to make a case that it affects a players own individual performance that it gets into dodgy territory for me. Archer looking like he cbf was a result of his not being able to get wickets, but people want to make it the cause.

It's definitely a thing with this England side though in general, and has been for several years now. They randomly seem to drop intensity for long stretches of a game for no apparent reason, even when you think they should absolutely be raring to go, and what is body language if a measure - an imperfect, sometimes flawed measure, yes - of how much intensity you're putting into the game?

The focus is on Archer because he's The New Shiny Thing in English cricket which immediately means that everyone becomes slightly irrational when talking about him, but it's hardly something he pioneered.

 

[theegyptian]

it's posts like these that just enhance his rep as a gigantic sook tbh

I don't see how a post by me should have any impact on his reputation.

you make it sound like he needs, and deserves, preferential treatment. that's ridiculous, this is a team and he's expected to contribute to morale as much as the next bloke.

Some players will inevitably need more managing that others. And some players will get different treatment because of their skills. Kp for instance was a tool but they kept him in the team when lesser players would have been dropped for similar insolence. Archer is still inexperienced too so will hopefully improve.

not having this 'different cultures' thing either. england are not the first cricket team to have a foreigner playing for them.

Have you ever been the outsider in a group? The junior player in a team of adults. The only asian in a team of whites?

neil wagner went to otago at the bottom of the world barely speaking english and became, well, wagner.

Wagner is what 33 and played 44 tests. Maybe wait until Archer is older before making a comparison?

he's not the first bloke to have a tough tour down under and be down on pace after a long season. that's understandable for a rookie.

what is weird is at the slightest suggestion he's phoning it in, being a debbie downer in the field or packing a sad to the media about speed guns, people say he is justified to do these things. no he's not ffs, he's paid six figures in english money to bowl a cricket ball at pace, take wickets and try his best for his team. he needs to shut up and do it. people need to stop making weird excuses for him. would you do this if he had never touched 150kph in his life?

I don't think people are saying he's justified or right. Just that these things happen especially in someone inexperienced. His newspaper column for instance. He probably hasn't realised that every word he says will be analysed by some pedants from New Zealand for any slight inaccuracy or perceived slight.

'good, but throws a sook at mild inconvenience' is annoying and noticeable in normal workplaces and i imagine pro cricket teams too.

He will be treated differently (if required) because he does have huge potential in an area are England are short of resources (and because he is inexperienced currently). Obviously in time the inexperience will no longer be a reason.

England will hope that he does improve his fielding/ body language in time and effort levels at certain times. They'll do that by good captaincy and a management on England's part so that Archer buys into the team ethic, and yes it goes both ways so Archer needs to make an effort too . But even if he doesn't and he showcases indifferent body language throughout his career and is enigmatic when bowling, if he continues averaging 27 and 24 with the ball then they will take it. There are plenty of individuals who haven't been great team players who have prospered at international level - cricket is a game of individual contests in a team format.

Again I really feel it's unfair to single Archer out exclusively. What about Broad in the first test? Bowled 9 less overs than Archer. Was hardly running in at the start of day 3 and getting it down in the mid 120s at a pivotal part of the test. This from a guy with 130 odd tests. What about the terrible batting. What about Broad's comments to the press? Denly's drop? What about Curran bowling early 120s on day1 of second test. Crawley's bad fielding.

 

[SteveNZ]

He will be treated differently (if required) because he does have huge potential in an area are England are short of resources (and because he is inexperienced currently). Obviously in time the inexperience will no longer be a reason.

England will hope that he does improve his fielding/ body language in time and effort levels at certain times. They'll do that by good captaincy and a management on England's part so that Archer buys into the team ethic, and yes it goes both ways so Archer needs to make an effort too . But even if he doesn't and he showcases indifferent body language throughout his career and is enigmatic when bowling, if he continues averaging 27 and 24 with the ball then they will take it. There are plenty of individuals who haven't been great team players who have prospered at international level - cricket is a game of individual contests in a team format.

Again I really feel it's unfair to single Archer out exclusively. What about Broad in the first test? Bowled 9 less overs than Archer. Was hardly running in at the start of day 3 and getting it down in the mid 120s at a pivotal part of the test. This from a guy with 130 odd tests. What about the terrible batting. What about Broad's comments to the press? Denly's drop? What about Curran bowling early 120s on day1 of second test. Crawley's bad fielding.

I completely agree it's unfair to single out Archer exclusively. Broad is a perfect example. For England to be more consistent, he'd need to turn up more. As he did in the second Test on an even flatter pitch than the first one that he dawdled in on.

You're right, Archer may still average 25-29 whilst only really turning up when it suits him, given how devastating he can be. But he's capable of more - especially if Root doesn't bowl him into the ground (which at this stage seems inevitable).

 

[NZTailender]

I think this will be a bit of a wake up call for Archer tbh. After success vs Australia, a WC win, he was probably thinking this tour would be a piece of piss. Not much at stake, a place where stereotypically seamers thrive...and then ran into the wall that is BJ Watling. Archer seems like a competer, a performer, so he might use this as his blueprint for when going gets tough. But as previously said, this was an England wide thing. They only seem interested in short bursts. Whatever grit and gumption they had under Strauss (captain) has disappeared for the setup completely.

 

[Athlai]

TBF NZ is looking like a harder tour for bowlers than anywhere except India these days

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

(Date range is since 2016, roughly when Kane became captain)

 

[wellAlbidarned]

archer isn't the first young bloke to have a lousy tour, but he's definitely the first in a while to get so visibly affected by it. Not saying he can't improve from here but I don't think that's too controversial a take.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

archer isn't the first young bloke to have a lousy tour, but he's definitely the first in a while to get so visibly affected by it. Not saying he can't improve from here but I don't think that's too controversial a take.

Worst since ...

 

[Immenso]

For the last few years, England bowlers Anderson and Broad , when overseas on a flat one pull back the length and pace and bowl dry.

Why is Archer being over analyzed for following the team's standard modus operandi?

He bowled very dry, and he bowled a lot of overs.

Not how I would use him, though, in that team with 6 good bowling options

But cut the "throwing a sook" crap.

 

[Gnske]

Why are we charging the Auschwitz camp guards with war crimes when it was Hitler who gave the orders?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

For the last few years, England bowlers Anderson and Broad , when overseas on a flat one pull back the length and pace and bowl dry.

Why is Archer being over analyzed for following the team's standard modus operandi?

He bowled very dry, and he bowled a lot of overs.

Not how I would use him, though, in that team with 6 good bowling options

But cut the "throwing a sook" crap.

It's not just the tour. The momentum of The Ashes shifted after his spell at Smith at Lords (albeit he didn't get him out) and England's freak win at Headingly. But he turned up on a cold autumn day at Old Trafford and looked disinterested and bowled dross and Australia regained the initiative. He might be trying to rack it up every time and just isn't capable. Only he really knows, but his demeanour suggests otherwise.

 

[FBU]

It's not just the tour. The momentum of The Ashes shifted after his spell at Smith at Lords (albeit he didn't get him out) and England's freak win at Headingly. But he turned up on a cold autumn day at Old Trafford and looked disinterested and bowled dross and Australia regained the initiative. He might be trying to rack it up every time and just isn't capable. Only he really knows, but his demeanour suggests otherwise.

Must be the yawning. I haven't seen anyone yawn as much on the field. Well no one really. Must be those late nights playing computer games.

 

[honestbharani]

Strange are the ways of Jofradamus. Maybe he s up late looking into the future and hence yawning on the field.

 

[BSM]

Eh I think Archer will learn from the experience and be better for it in the future. At times he was unlucky, and generally bowled quite well I thought; just for little reward. It can be like that sometimes. I don't hold our performance in the 1st test against our bowlers at all. It was an absolute road, that our batters just failed to bat properly on and get 400+

 

[Grasshopper]

I hope England learns the right lessons from this failed test series and goes on to do well in SA, but I think they might continue to struggle. For all the talk of roads and Archer's apparent lethargy, I think that's largely deflection from their disappointing performance in other crucial aspects. Much has been made of them not getting a higher first innings total after winning the toss in Mt Maunganui, but then they were shot out for under 200 in the 2nd innings to clutch defeat from the jaws of an eminently achievable draw...on a road. Then in Hamilton they took forever to post a decent lead when they needed to make all the play to win...on a road. They just looked strangely low-energy at times.

 

[FBU]

Worth his weight in gold, can take him anywhere, the great Wagner.

87.1-16-258-13 at 19.84

NZ's leading bowler this year 29 wickets at 16.62 s/r 31.9