Keith Miller vs Shane Warne

[Johan]

37 averaging Batsman who can bat top 6, averages the same as the ATGs with the ball, has a lower WPM just because he didn't bother bowling at the tail or to India, was a great fielder on top. Miller is being underrated solely due to an awkward all rounder hate some people practise.

Daily Reminder, Ben Stokes was considered a greater cricketer than Joe Root until 2021, that is the value of All Rounders.

 

[kyear2]

Talking lists, Compton was 20 for Gower, Knott was 50, huge gap. Gower didn't seem to rate either Bedser or Evans, though Gower and Bedser were not at best of terms as Bedser kept dropping Gower and unequivocally favoured Gooch over him so that might play a factor.

Crowe's list was weird and all four of the gentlemen were featured.

1877-1900: WG Grace
1900-1930: Jack Hobbs, Herbert Sutcliffe, Victor Trumper, Sydney Barnes (4)
1930-1950: Don Bradman, Len Hutton, George Headley, Wally Hammond, Alec Bedser, Bill O'Reilly, Clarrie Grimmett (7)
1950-1970: Keith Miller, Denis Compton, Everton Weekes, Frank Worrell, Clyde Walcott, Garry Sobers, Graeme Pollock, Fred Trueman, Jim Laker, Godfrey Evans (10)
1970-1990: Viv Richards, Greg Chappell, Barry Richards, Sunil Gavaskar, Javed Miandad, Allan Border, Richard Hadlee, Imran Khan, Kapil Dev, Ian Botham, Alan Knott, Dennis Lillee, Michael Holding, Malcolm Marshall (14)
1990-2013: Sachin Tendulkar, Jacques Kallis, Brian Lara, Ricky Ponting, Rahul Dravid, Adam Gilchrist, Shane Warne, Muttiah Muralitharan, Anil Kumble, Glenn McGrath, Allan Donald, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Curtly Ambrose (14)

Good thing you mention West Indies, give the current West Indies Bedser and they become the single most dominant and competent bowling unit around right after Australia, give current West Indies Compton and they win one of the three games in the ongoing Australia series, give them a Godfrey Evans and they take more catches but lose all the same, give them Knott and it's similar to Evans but marginal batting gain.

You can't seriously be convinced elite wicket keeping has the same match impact as elite batting or bowling.

I'm saying give them credit for what they do. It's that simple. Godfrey Evans is probably the greatest wicketkeeper that has ever played the game, but the position has evolved to an all rounder one and he's not seen as enticing. Doesn't mean we try to devalue what he's capable of.

I get it, wicket-keepers are the kickers of cricket, but how many games have been lost as a result of either?

Every part of a cricket team is important.

 

[kyear2]

name one better number 6 batsman in the world currently, if not, then clearly he's a world class number 6 batsman, hell he's better than a bunch of number fives right now

There are world class no. 6 batsmen, they're weird class batsmen. No. 6 is where the worst ones bat.

World class no. 6 is like someone who mentioned ATG lower order batsman, that's not a thing.

It's opener and middle order. Was he world class, no.

And he actually batted and 4 and 5, was he world class at either of those?

 

[Johan]

I'm saying give them credit for what they do. It's that simple. Godfrey Evans is probably the greatest wicketkeeper that has ever played the game, but the position has evolved to an all rounder one and he's not seen as enticing. Doesn't mean we try to devalue what he's capable of.

I get it, wicket-keepers are the kickers of cricket, but how many games have been lost as a result of either?

Every part of a cricket team is important.

Importance is a quantifiable measure, it's important but in no sense is wicket keeping important enough for us to compare keepers to actual all rounders. There is value Alan Knott brings with the gloves, but that is not going to make him beat elite bowlers and elite Batsmen. There's a limit.

 

[kyear2]

Shane Warne

And not a contest.

 

[kyear2]

Importance is a quantifiable measure, it's important but in no sense is wicket keeping important enough for us to compare keepers to actual all rounders. There is value Alan Knott brings with the gloves, but that is not going to make him beat elite bowlers and elite Batsmen. There's a limit.

We can disagree, also to where we draw the line for elite batsmen.
For me Knott and Evans are ATG cricketers. You can decide if that means they're better than none ATG batsmen or not.

 

[Coronis]

There are world class no. 6 batsmen, they're weird class batsmen. No. 6 is where the worst ones bat.

World class no. 6 is like someone who mentioned ATG lower order batsman, that's not a thing.

It's opener and middle order. Was he world class, no.

And he actually batted and 4 and 5, was he world class at either of those?

Where did Garry Sobers most often bat again? I forget

 

[Johan]

There are world class no. 6 batsmen, they're weird class batsmen. No. 6 is where the worst ones bat.

World class no. 6 is like someone who mentioned ATG lower order batsman, that's not a thing.

It's opener and middle order. Was he world class, no.

And he actually batted and 4 and 5, was he world class at either of those?

He averaged 42 at 5 so Yes, but that is besides my point, you can slot Miller at 6 very easily and he'd average high 30s to low 40s, as good as anyone you'd find for a #6 Batsman in a conventional team.

Then he'd give you ATG class opening spells, and in this scenario he'd allow you to pick an extra bowler, 4 would become 5, a net amplification to both structures, He's just the guy.

That is simply the dynamic with all rounders.

 

[kyear2]

Where did Garry Sobers most often bat again? I forget

And this is where deliberate lack of context comes in, and to the point I just made.

Being an all rounder took away from what he could have been with the bat, which of course wasn't half bad to start, but my point remains.

To answer your stupid ass question though.

He batted and was successful in all batting positions, even more so than he was at 6. But when you're bowling 40 overs a match, yes, you need the extra rest.

 

[kyear2]

He averaged 42 at 5 so Yes, but that is besides my point, you can slot Miller at 6 very easily and he'd average high 30s to mid 40s, as good as anyone you'd find for a #6 Batsman in a conventional team.

Then he'd give you ATG class opening spells, and in this scenario he'd allow you to pick an extra bowler, 4 would become 5, a net amplification to both structures, He's just the guy.

That is simply the dynamic with all rounders.

And 28 at 4.

And we can disagree. I'll take Border at 6 and be content.

We are allowed to disagree.

 

[Coronis]

And this is where deliberate lack of context comes in, and to the point I just made.

Being an all rounder took away from what he could have been with the bat, which of course wasn't half bad to start, but my point remains.

To answer your stupid ass question though.

He batted and was successful in all batting positions, even more so than he was at 6. But when you're bowling 40 overs a match, yes, you need the extra rest.

Shocking that Miller is also an allrounder, huh?

 

[kyear2]

Shocking that Miller is also an allrounder, huh?

ND he's an ATG all rounder.

But let's stop trying to pretend he was a great batsman or a no. 1 option as a bowler.

He was mostly neither.

 

[subshakerz]

He's no where near that player dude.

The key part to that is ATG, best after Bradman, march winning batsman.

You don't deny he is a test middle order bat in an ATG team, a great fielder and a worldclass bowler.

Like seriously how on match impact is Warne close? Please specify.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm saying give them credit for what they do. It's that simple. Godfrey Evans is probably the greatest wicketkeeper that has ever played the game, but the position has evolved to an all rounder one and he's not seen as enticing. Doesn't mean we try to devalue what he's capable of.

I get it, wicket-keepers are the kickers of cricket, but how many games have been lost as a result of either?

Every part of a cricket team is important.

Funnily enough, Kyear likes to bring the argument that ATG sides didn't need ARs yet he can't do that with Miller.

 

[reyrey]

The key being test average of 37.

The key is 37 is a hell of a lot more than the 24 you kept throwing around.

 

[kyear2]

You don't deny he is a test middle order bat in an ATG team, a great fielder and a worldclass bowler.

Like seriously how on match impact is Warne close? Please specify.

I wouldn't say Sobers was a world class bowler his entire career. I would say that from when he started bowling pace that he certainly was.

Warne was a match winning bowler, that was his job and he was better at it than any other spinner ever.

 

[DrWolverine]

ND he's an ATG all rounder.

But let's stop trying to pretend he was a great batsman or a no. 1 option as a bowler.

He was mostly neither.

Like Sobers or Jacques Kallis

ND he's an ATG all rounder.

But let's stop trying to pretend he was a great batsman or a no. 1 option as a bowler.

He was mostly neither.

Like Hadlee or Imran Khan

 

[subshakerz]

I wouldn't say Sobers was a world class bowler his entire career. I would say that from when he started bowling pace that he certainly was.

Warne was a match winning bowler, that was his job and he was better at it than any other spinner ever.

I am talking about Miller. Sobers was never a worldclass bowler.

How is not worldclass bowler + good bat + great fielder not > to ATG spinner?

 

[DrWolverine]

I wouldn't say Sobers was a world class bowler his entire career. I would say that from when he started bowling pace that he certainly was.

I am sure we have different idea of world class.

Sobers’ bowling peak was 1962-1969
38 Tests. 138 wkts @ 31. 5 5-Fers.
Not world class in my opinion

 

[Johan]

Like Hadlee or Imran Khan

Millers comfortably a better bat in their respective all rounder phases