Kapil/Jadeja vs Botham/Flintoff

[subshakerz]

I won’t agree with that and it is because Botham had Willis to support. Kapil had none supporting him and he was lone warrior with the bowl. Moreover, Kapil never missed test matches, it is amazing how he played 135 tests in 15 years of his career. In addition to that, Botham has poor record with bowl vs Windies so I will rate Kapil just a tad higher in bowling.

In batting department, Botham is better. He played so many games at 6 and succeeded. He is as good as a 35-36 averaging bat.

Botham had a higher ceiling as a bowler, I don't think there is much doubt on that. 27 fifers and 4 tenfers in much less tests.

 

[subshakerz]

he was injured so they selected Ashwin. Otherwise Jaddu would have been selected.

Don't think that's true for all series.

 

[Rob Wesley]

Botham had a higher ceiling as a bowler, I don't think there is much doubt on that. 27 fifers and 4 tenfers in much less tests.

Yeah but he didn’t ended with that high ceiling. He arguably had the biggest of declines.

Indian fans say Kapil had a much higher ceiling with bat and should have averaged a lot more instead of having SR of 80+. But end of the day, it is your output to team that matters.

 

[Rob Wesley]

Don't think that's true for all series.

2021 was when Jadeja was injured for full series. India played Ash at 7, Shardul at 8 and three more pacers. Usually they play Ash at 8 when they play three pacers but in this series, India would have wanted Jadeja at 7 but due to injury, had to contend with 4 pacers + Ashwin.

2018 was long back and that time it was a different story. Jadeja hadn’t taken his batting to that level yet and Ashwin was usually preferred being the senior pro and at his prime with bowl.

 

[h_hurricane]

Botham is still a slightly better bowler than Kapil.

You have brought up Jadeja's lack of sample size in SA, but haven't brought up Botham's sample size in Pakistan, the hardest country to tour for bowlers. You have also habitually brought up Ambrose's record in one series in 97 there.

Botham played a solitary test in Pakistan in 1984 and famously disliked touring there. Kapil on the other hand played 15 tests there, took a massive hit on his average and still averaged only 1 run worse than Botham.

Without away tests against Pakistan, Botham's record is 381 wickets at 28.31. Kapil has 390 tests at 28.47. It is so ridiculously close that you could go either way.

 

[subshakerz]

You have brought up Jadeja's lack of sample size in SA, but haven't brought up Botham's sample size in Pakistan, the hardest country to tour for bowlers. You have also habitually brought up Ambrose's record in one series in 97 there.

Botham played a solitary test in Pakistan in 1984 and famously disliked touring there. Kapil on the other hand played 15 tests there, took a massive hit on his average and still averaged only 1 run worse than Botham.

Without away tests against Pakistan, Botham's record is 381 wickets at 28.31. Kapil has 390 tests at 28.47. It is so ridiculously close that you could go either way.

Ok but we can't assume Botham would fail in Pakistan.

He still did better than Kapil in India.

I don't think Botham is a tier ahead of Kapil they are in the same class.

 

[subshakerz]

2021 was when Jadeja was injured for full series. India played Ash at 7, Shardul at 8 and three more pacers. Usually they play Ash at 8 when they play three pacers but in this series, India would have wanted Jadeja at 7 but due to injury, had to contend with 4 pacers + Ashwin.

2018 was long back and that time it was a different story. Jadeja hadn’t taken his batting to that level yet and Ashwin was usually preferred being the senior pro and at his prime with bowl.

And 2023?

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah but he didn’t ended with that high ceiling. He arguably had the biggest of declines.

Indian fans say Kapil had a much higher ceiling with bat and should have averaged a lot more instead of having SR of 80+. But end of the day, it is your output to team that matters.

Botham was a tier ahead of Kapil for the first half of his career, a true worldclass bowler.

He ended up in the same tier but I would prefer a bowler more capable of those performances.

 

[Rob Wesley]

And 2023?

he had back spasm so he missed the 1st test. Played the 2nd test but that was a seamer paradise. SA got bowled out at 55.

IND vs SA: Was Ravindra Jadeja snubbed from India's playing XI for 1st Test against South Africa? Real reason revealed

Rohit Sharma, during the toss, shared his initial uncertainty about whether to bat or bowl first on the Centurion pitch, a decision made somewhat easier as he lost the toss.

thesportstak.com

 

[Johan]

Botham is the better bowler until about his rib injury in Australia and his career was more or less over after that. Overall close enough.