Jasprit Bumrah vs Rahul Dravid vs Kapil Dev

[subshakerz]

Kapil is easily more than Dravid.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I know you love Gavaskar and Kapil, but Dravid's not a league below Kapil

He's arguably above for me. Kapil's greatness comes from intangibles, what he meant for Indian cricket overall, the world cup win, etc. But for actual on field contribution in test cricket, I would have Dravid ahead.

 

[subshakerz]

He's arguably above for me. Kapil's greatness comes from intangibles, what he meant for Indian cricket overall, the world cup win, etc. But for actual on field contribution in test cricket, I would have Dravid ahead.

As a high quality AR, Kapil almost automatically goes ahead of Dravid or any bat that isn't an outright ATG.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I don't think Kapil was a great bowler. That's literally like saying Brett Lee was a great bowler. His average is nigh on 30, a strike rate over 60 and the wpm is closer to 3 than 4.
Walsh was a great bowler, so was Miller, Andy Roberts. Hazelwood and Starc world class performers.

I do not think he's a tail ender, he's also not a test level bat. A rpi of 28 is that of a specialist bat.

Away from home he averaged 32 with the ball and 26 with the bat.

He was an above test standard bowler and a decent lower order hitter.

There's nothing there to push him into the realm of ATG.

Like Worrell is for the West Indies, he's a great for India and influenced a generation to the game. But that doesn't make you imo an ATG, the same way what Worrell did, make him one.

Mark Taylor was an opening batsman during one of if the 3 toughest eras in cricket. He was closer to being a great batsman than Kapil a great bowler, and I think he beats Kapil on primary. Taylor was also not only the best tactical captain I've seen, he's the only all round great captain I've seen and as far as I'm concerned the GOAT in that discipline. He was also a top tier elite slip and top 10 all time in that area as well.

You've brought up Sobers again. Sobers is a top 5 batsman of all time and a candidate for BAB, and there's many an observer who ranks him the best after Bradman.

As a slip fielder he was "in the class of Simpson and Hammond" and top 4 all time in that disciple... As an overall close catcher, he had no equal.

As a bowler, and specially as a pace bowler he was a test standard performer. He wasn't great, and wasn't as good as Kapil, but he was just about average.

He was top 5 in two disciplines and the most versatile ever in the 3rd. Not only is he the greatest all rounder ever, he was the greatest all round cricketer ever.

He is unquestionably one of the lone 3 cricketers in the upper pantheon of the sport, and that drops to two when specifically restricted to tests or 20th century and after.

You have a batsman that averaged a hundred, vs a batsman that averaged 60, and against considerably better bowlers and more helpful (away) pitches, while being a front line bowler contributing 40 overs a match who also caught flies.

For reference that's like having Tendulkar, Stokes and Waugh Jr all rolled into one player.

If Kapil was Lee equivalent as a bowler, then Sobers was Jayawardene equivalent in batting

 

[capt_Luffy]

If Kapil was Lee equivalent as a bowler, then Sobers was Jayawardene equivalent in batting

Or Viv and Samaraweera....

 

[OverratedSanity]

Best cricketers:
Sachin
Gavaskar
Bumrah
Dravid
Kapil

Greatest cricketers:
Sachin
Gavaskar
Kapil
Bumrah (for now)
Dravid

 

[kyear2]

If Kapil was Lee equivalent as a bowler, then Sobers was Jayawardene equivalent in batting

You do know he averaged 30 as a bowler.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Best cricketers:
Sachin
Gavaskar
Bumrah
Dravid
Kapil

Greatest cricketers:
Sachin
Gavaskar
Kapil
Bumrah (for now)
Dravid

Will you have Tiger in your 10 Greatest Indian cricketers?

 

[Johan]

Kapil is a clearly better bowler than Starc

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think Kapil was a great bowler. That's literally like saying Brett Lee was a great bowler. His average is nigh on 30, a strike rate over 60 and the wpm is closer to 3 than 4.
Walsh was a great bowler, so was Miller, Andy Roberts. Hazelwood and Starc world class performers.

I do not think he's a tail ender, he's also not a test level bat. A rpi of 28 is that of a specialist bat.

Away from home he averaged 32 with the ball and 26 with the bat.

He was an above test standard bowler and a decent lower order hitter.

This is so disrespectful.

Kapil is a better Cricketer than Walsh and would be in the 80s WI side.

 

[h_hurricane]

Downward adjusts Kapil's bowling average from 29.64 to 30, to make it look worse.
Upward adjusts Sobers' batting average from 57.78 to 60, to make it look better.

Says Kapil has a run per innings of 28. And then says Sobers has an average of 60(ignores Sobers RPI of 50).

Says Kapil averages 3 runs worse with the ball abroad than his overall average but then ignores Sobers averaging 7 runs worse with the bat abroad.

Says Kapil is like Lee as a bowler in tests, but positions Sobers next to Bradman in batting (as if they are in similar class).

Says Kapil is not a test standard bat (as if that is his role). Thinks Sobers adds value with a bowling average of 34 and SR of 90 (In reality he shouldn't even touch the ball in ATG setup with that record).

Rinse and repeat in every thread.

 

[subshakerz]

Downward adjusts Kapil's bowling average from 29.64 to 30, to make it look worse.
Upward adjusts Sobers' batting average from 57.78 to 60, to make it look better.

Says Kapil has a run per innings of 28. And then says Sobers has an average of 60(ignores Sobers RPI of 50).

Says Kapil averages 3 runs worse with the ball abroad than his overall average but then ignores Sobers averaging 7 runs worse with the bat abroad.

Says Kapil is like Lee as a bowler in tests, but positions Sobers next to Bradman in batting (as if they are in similar class).

Says Kapil is not a test standard bat (as if that is his role). Thinks Sobers adds value with a bowling average of 34 and SR of 90 (In reality he shouldn't even touch the ball in ATG setup with that record).

Rinse and repeat in every thread.

Kyear is the king of ignoring his own standards.

 

[Johan]

Says Kapil is not a test standard bat (as if that is his role). Thinks Sobers adds value with a bowling average of 34 and SR of 90 (In reality he shouldn't even touch the ball in ATG setup with that record).

He's the fifth bowler.

 

[h_hurricane]

He's the fifth bowler.

I know. If Kapil is expected to bat like Sachin or Dravid, Sobers should be expected to bowl like Marshall or Ambrose.

 

[Johan]

I know. If Kapil is expected to bat like Sachin or Dravid, Sobers should be expected to bowl like Marshall or Ambrose.

well that's...interesting expectations for all rounders.

 

[kyear2]

This is so disrespectful.

Kapil is a better Cricketer than Walsh and would be in the 80s WI side.

What is disrespectful?

Was Kapil a great bowler?

Is he a better bowler than Walsh?

I don't see the argument for either of those two questions being yes.

Kapil is at best a world class performer, probably is, he's not a great bowler.

With regards to playing instead of Walsh? The only person answering that is Lloyd or Vivian. What I can tell you is that they valued getting 20.wickets above all else.

And quite frankly not everyone selects their teams like India does. Kuldeep not getting a bowl over Shardul has been roundly criticized.

What is it that your guy has been repeatedly saying the past few weeks? You just select you best 4 bowlers and try to take 20 wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

What is disrespectful?

You called Kapil an above standard test bowler. A guy with over 400 wickets largely on SC unsupportive pitches.

That's an insane comment and I can't interpret it any other way than intending to insult him.

It's like me saying Marshall was a pretty good bowler.

It's so snide. I get you reflexively like rating WI and Aus cricketer more highly but please keep this bias in check.

 

[kyear2]

Downward adjusts Kapil's bowling average from 29.64 to 30, to make it look worse.
Upward adjusts Sobers' batting average from 57.78 to 60, to make it look better.

Says Kapil has a run per innings of 28. And then says Sobers has an average of 60(ignores Sobers RPI of 50).

Says Kapil averages 3 runs worse with the ball abroad than his overall average but then ignores Sobers averaging 7 runs worse with the bat abroad.

Says Kapil is like Lee as a bowler in tests, but positions Sobers next to Bradman in batting (as if they are in similar class).

Says Kapil is not a test standard bat (as if that is his role). Thinks Sobers adds value with a bowling average of 34 and SR of 90 (In reality he shouldn't even touch the ball in ATG setup with that record).

Rinse and repeat in every thread.

I see you're up in your feelings again.

From the time you start your response with "downgrading 29.64 to 30 to make it look worse" it really sets the tone for the tripe you're typing.
.where did I say that Sobers and Bradman are in the same tier?

What I did say is that he as much a claim to 2nd as any of those in that group.

The reason I mentioned that Kapil isn't a test level bat is with regards to his claim to be an ATG. If you're not an ATG, or even great bowler, you need something to push you in that overall category.

With regards to your and salty's obvious ignorance if Sobers's bowling.

One of the greatest teams of all time he played as the 4th bowler.
Three years later he had what was undoubtedly the best away performances in a series.
Four years after that he had a ridiculous performance vs an AT team in the ROW series where he was the leading run scorer and wicket taker and effectively was the third bowling option for that team.

Beyond those, Sobers bowled more overs per match than Kapil. It wasn't unusual for Sobers to start off with the new ball and then bowl spin to negative fields during the dog overs.
When he predominantly bowled pace he was either around the 30 mark if not below. Not that far from your guy is it?

The difference between these two is that Sobers is an elite top tier ATG based on batting alone. The fact that he was also a front line bowler his entire career, and a top 5 bowler for an entire decade adds to that. The fact that he was a top 5 slip of all time puts him into the pantheon.

Kapil was a really good player and hugely influential to Indian cricket. But what you're trying to say is that Sobers wasn't great at everything, being merely good, if versatile with the ball. But Kapil wasn't great at anything, that wasn't a slight, it's reality.
You mention Sobers stats, but in the 80's Kapil's stats isn't great reading. In the 80's Kapil averaged 29.64, at a strike rate of 64 and a wpm of 3.3.

Sobers name is one of two that's inked into any and all AT XIs, Kapil isn't making my AT team from the 80's.

Besides your noted tribalism I don't see the need for you to go after which is your preferred west Indian of the day. But guess you can only be you.

 

[kyear2]

I know. If Kapil is expected to bat like Sachin or Dravid, Sobers should be expected to bowl like Marshall or Ambrose.

Now you're just creating strawmen.

But you know this.

So proceed.

 

[kyear2]

You called Kapil an above standard test bowler. A guy with over 400 wickets largely on SC unsupportive pitches.

That's an insane comment and I can't interpret it any other way than intending to insult him.

It's like me saying Marshall was a pretty good bowler.

It's so snide. I get you reflexively like rating WI and Aus cricketer more highly but please keep this bias in check.

Is Kapil a great test bowler?

Simple question.