Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

[sayon basak]

What are we even arguing at this stage?

 

[Johan]

What are we even arguing at this stage?

Migara thinks we should feel sympathy for Pakistan (lol) and WI fans should be haunted by cheating against the biggest cheats in the world, just delusion as always.

 

[subshakerz]

should've done it in 1979 bud, not near the end after you were 1-0 up in the series.

Lol he wasn't captain in 79.

 

[subshakerz]

Migara thinks we should feel sympathy for Pakistan (lol) and WI fans should be haunted by cheating against the biggest cheats in the world, just delusion as always.

Your point (cheaters deserve cheating) would make more sense if WI wasn't facing a team that tried for neutral umpires. Clearly Imran had a right to feel aggrieved at least you can concede. You can't say Imran developed a culture of cheating but pushed for neutral umpires. Those are mutually exclusive.

 

[Johan]

Your point (cheaters deserve cheating) would make more sense if WI wasn't facing a team that tried for neutral umpires. Clearly Imran had a right to feel aggrieved at least you can concede. You can't say Imran developed a culture of cheating but pushed for neutral umpires. Those are mutually exclusive.

just for pushing neutral umpires with the motivation of not having your wins completely written off to the umpires is not going to erase a decade and more of blatant cheating at home, the fact Imran felt the need to have neutral umpires for his win to be celebrated/acknowledged shows how big of a problem umpiring before that series really was, and if @Sliferxxxx was right, it was after they were up 1-0 anyway.

 

[subshakerz]

just for pushing neutral umpires with the motivation of not having your wins completely written off to the umpires is not going to erase a decade and more of blatant cheating at home, the fact Imran felt the need to have neutral umpires for his win to be celebrated/acknowledged shows how big of a problem umpiring before that series really was, and if @Sliferxxxx was right, it was after they were up 1-0 anyway.

I think that is a very uncharitable take on it. You act as if Pakistan was the only country where folks lost series due to umpiring. Him wanting his series win to be seen as clean is a perfectly good motivation. The cheating at home started well before he became captain.

Pak under Imran likely lost the 1982 series in England due to bad umpiring. And of course WI in NZ. And if Pakistan wanted to win dirty with the 86 series they wouldn't have neutral umpires in the first place.

Imran actually did world cricket a service by being proactive and introducing it. He deserves credit.

 

[Johan]

I think that is a very uncharitable take on it. You act as if Pakistan was the only country where folks lost series due to umpiring. Him wanting his series win to be seen as clean is a perfectly good motivation. The cheating at home started well before he became captain.

Pak under Imran likely lost the 1982 series in England due to bad umpiring. And of course WI in NZ. And if Pakistan wanted to win dirty with the 86 series they wouldn't have neutral umpires in the first place.

Imran actually did world cricket a service by being proactive and introducing it. He deserves credit.

You can deserve credit for doing a good thing but your team can also not be deserving of sympathy after decades of being reknowned for cheating.

the same way you can not attribute anything before his captaincy to imran, I can also just separate the terms between Imran and Pakistan

 

[subshakerz]

You can deserve credit for doing a good thing but your team can also not be deserving of sympathy after decades of being reknowned for cheating.

the same way you can not attribute anything before his captaincy to imran, I can also just separate the terms between Imran and Pakistan

If you make that distinction your view is more acceptable

 

[Coronis]

Can’t blame the teams and players for things outside their control like the umpires imo. Need more umpire slander in the the thread rather than player or team slander.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I was really trying to stay out this post but whatever. First of all, I resent that pos Mig or whatever he calls himself calling us "dirty little cheaters" he can go F himself as far as I'm concerned. To the more reasonable posters, yes the umpiring in the '88 series particularly the 2nd and 1st test were decidedly against Pakistan, I've never shied away from that. But that was the umpires not the WI players themselves. I will add the caveat though, that Pakistan played outstandingly during that series but the first test in Guyana was played w/o WI's two most important cricketers: Viv and Sir Malcolm. If people on here think those two players wouldn't have made a difference, then they're deluding themselves. Imagine Pakistan w/o Imran or Javed.

Now to the '80 series in Pakistan, 86 series in Pakistan and other early 80s series involving Pakistan, the umpiring was just as bad if not worse. Here is an excerpt from the 1988 Australia tour there:

"Egar was again manager of the Australian touring team, and along with Bob Simpson, the coach, was the leading protagonist in the controversy that erupted on the third day of the First Test. It resulted from what the Australians considered were questionable decisions by Mahboob Shah, one of Pakistan's more reliable umpires. He had stood in the previous year's World Cup final when Australia beat England in Calcutta. Australia, in reply to Pakistan's first-innings score of 469 for nine declared, were faring badly against the left-arm spinner, Iqbal Qasim. And when Steve Waugh was given out lbw without scoring to leave Australia 54 for five, the Australians' ire knew no bounds. Egar and Simpson went to the Pakistan Board officials' room to lodge their protest in a manner and language considered insulting by the Pakistanis. Then, during the tea interval, they called the Australian journalists to a press conference at which they criticised the pitch and Mahboob Shah's decisions. Egar, a former Test umpire, later challenged the umpire himself.

"Such was the strength of Australian feeling about the conduct of the match that, at the end, there was a possibility of the team abandoning the tour. Allan Border, the Australian captain, described the Karachi pitch as the worst he had seen anywhere and said they would have to consider carefully whether or not to return home. It would seem like sour grapes after losing the Test, he said but ultimately somebody has to make a stand. A statement issued by the Australian team the next day emphasised that it was not the first touring team to take exception to the standard of the pitches and the umpiring in Pakistan. The situation is unacceptable and damaging to the international cricket, yet nothing seems to be done. We appeal to the Pakistan Board and the ICC to take a long and honest look at the situation confronting visiting teams...."

 

[subshakerz]

I was really trying to stay out this post but whatever. First of all, I resent that pos Mig or whatever he calls himself calling us "dirty little cheaters" he can go F himself as far as I'm concerned. To the more reasonable posters, yes the umpiring in the '88 series particularly the 2nd and 1st test were decidedly against Pakistan, I've never shied away from that. But that was the umpires not the WI players themselves. I will add the caveat though, that Pakistan played outstandingly during that series but the first test in Guyana was played w/o WI's two most important cricketers: Viv and Sir Malcolm. If people on here think those two players wouldn't have made a difference, then they're deluding themselves. Imagine Pakistan w/o Imran or Javed.

I think the point is that the 3rd test in which Pakistan were denied a series win due to umpiring had Marshall and Viv. So it's not like Pakistan weren't capable of beating them with those present.

Now to the '80 series in Pakistan, 86 series in Pakistan and other early 80s series involving Pakistan, the umpiring was just as bad if not worse.

Don't conflate biased umpiring with poor umpiring from neutral umpires, which you could argue was the case in 86.

Here is an excerpt from the 1988 Australia tour there:

"Egar was again manager of the Australian touring team, and along with Bob Simpson, the coach, was the leading protagonist in the controversy that erupted on the third day of the First Test. It resulted from what the Australians considered were questionable decisions by Mahboob Shah, one of Pakistan's more reliable umpires. He had stood in the previous year's World Cup final when Australia beat England in Calcutta. Australia, in reply to Pakistan's first-innings score of 469 for nine declared, were faring badly against the left-arm spinner, Iqbal Qasim. And when Steve Waugh was given out lbw without scoring to leave Australia 54 for five, the Australians' ire knew no bounds. Egar and Simpson went to the Pakistan Board officials' room to lodge their protest in a manner and language considered insulting by the Pakistanis. Then, during the tea interval, they called the Australian journalists to a press conference at which they criticised the pitch and Mahboob Shah's decisions. Egar, a former Test umpire, later challenged the umpire himself.

"Such was the strength of Australian feeling about the conduct of the match that, at the end, there was a possibility of the team abandoning the tour. Allan Border, the Australian captain, described the Karachi pitch as the worst he had seen anywhere and said they would have to consider carefully whether or not to return home. It would seem like sour grapes after losing the Test, he said but ultimately somebody has to make a stand. A statement issued by the Australian team the next day emphasised that it was not the first touring team to take exception to the standard of the pitches and the umpiring in Pakistan. The situation is unacceptable and damaging to the international cricket, yet nothing seems to be done. We appeal to the Pakistan Board and the ICC to take a long and honest look at the situation confronting visiting teams...."

Sorry but this wasn't unique to Pakistan at the time.

England had a notorious umpire called David Constant who was formally objected to by both Indian AND Pakistan teams yet was constantly selected for tours. Imran considers his decisions to have cost them the close 82 series. In fact this may have been one reason Pakistan stuck with Rana in the 88 series with England despite their complaints.

Can read more here:
www.espncricinfo.com/story/rewind-when-india-and-pakistan-objected-to-david-constant-standing-in-their-tests-in-england-775503%3fplatform=amp

 

[Coronis]

We should get neutral robots with a neutral AI designed by a neutral country to replace umpires at some point.

 

[subshakerz]

We should get neutral robots with a neutral AI designed by a neutral country to replace umpires at some point.

Will happen eventually.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I think the point is that the 3rd test in which Pakistan were denied a series win due to umpiring had Marshall and Viv. So it's not like Pakistan weren't capable of beating them with those present.


Don't conflate biased umpiring with poor umpiring from neutral umpires, which you could argue was the case in 86.



Sorry but this wasn't unique to Pakistan at the time.

England had a notorious umpire called David Constant who was formally objected to by both Indian AND Pakistan teams yet was constantly selected for tours. Imran considers his decisions to have cost them the close 82 series. In fact this may have been one reason Pakistan stuck with Rana in the 88 series with England despite their complaints.

Can read more here:
www.espncricinfo.com/story/rewind-when-india-and-pakistan-objected-to-david-constant-standing-in-their-tests-in-england-775503%3fplatform=amp

Brother the Pakistani umpiring was poor and biased and that's coming from all parts, even up to 88 as highlighted after so called neutral umpires were introduced. Neutral umpires were featured sporadically fwiw. And it wasn't just the umpiring it was the ball manipulating stuff. Tbh I really didn't have a dog in this debate but then your BFF had to start his bs calling us "dirty little cheaters" and other schitt. We hardly played at home in the 80s, therefore teams had more than enough opportunities to beat us in their own back yard; but they didn't.

 

[subshakerz]

Brother the Pakistani umpiring was poor and biased and that's coming from all parts, even up to 88 as highlighted after so called neutral umpires were introduced. Neutral umpires were featured sporadically fwiw. And it wasn't just the umpiring it was the ball manipulating stuff. Tbh I really didn't have a dog in this debate but then your BFF had to start his bs calling us "dirty little cheaters" and other schitt. We hardly played at home in the 80s, therefore teams had more than enough opportunities to beat us in their own back yard; but they didn't.

I know but my issue has always been that there is a subtle shift between suggesting everyone was biased or tampering in the 80s and maybe the Pakistanis were especially bad at it, which I can accept, versus implying the Pakistanis were the only ones regularly doing it.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I know but my issue has always been that there is a subtle shift between suggesting everyone was biased or tampering in the 80s and maybe the Pakistanis were especially bad at it, which I can accept, versus implying the Pakistanis were the only ones regularly doing it.

Pakistan didn't have the only bad umpires. The ball tampering thing I'll leave alone because I actually like you. Can we move on please.

 

[subshakerz]

Pakistan didn't have the only bad umpires. The ball tampering thing I'll leave alone because I actually like you. Can we move on please.

Ok

 

[shortpitched713]

Migara, you've really gone off the rails, mate. Everyone was cheating with umpiring to varying extents back in those days. No need to put a specific point on WI doing that.

Everyone knows how extraordinary the accomplishments of Pakistan, and specifically Imran in those series against WI was.

 

[The Sean]

Australia wasn't cheating during the 1980s.

At least, I hope not - because if we were cheating and were still that bad, that's just embarrassing.

 

[Johan]

Australia wasn't cheating during the 1980s.

At least, I hope not - because if we were cheating and were still that bad, that's just embarrassing.

1958-59 Ashes umpiring, they been cheating since time began