Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

[Socerer 01]

since i never watched him play

was Imran’s fielding so bad that it doesnt get any mention?

 

[kyear2]

since i never watched him play

was Imran’s fielding so bad that it doesnt get any mention?

Well below par

 

[smash84]

since i never watched him play

was Imran’s fielding so bad that it doesnt get any mention?

It wasn't too bad when he started out. It got bad once he got captaincy though.

 

[subshakerz]

I haven't and wouldn't read the last 3 pages, but my only counter to Subs is that while Kallis is pushed down for lack of workload, I believe that SA handled him almost perfectly, especially as he got older. Why over work your best batsman with the ball, especially when his value is just as high if not higher at 2nd. Let him fill in a few over, assist with the rotation and hopefully break a partnership or two. I wish that's how Sobers would have handled himself while batting at 4 and standing at 2nd, way more value to the team.

It should be about what's best for the team and not would look look on statguru 20 years later.

I agree, SA handled Kallis well. But then he got off with a lesser workload and hence a lesser output than a proper test bowler without having it test his batting peak.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't see how it's a point in Kallis' favour that he was handled in such an optimal way and he still didn't exactly ever put up great bowling numbers.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Single Handedly doesn’t mean you have to score all the runs and take all the wickets… that is impossible
It means your effort alone contributed to much like 70% for the team in the victory in which the rest contributed only the remaining 30% or so
[/QUOTE]

He didn't do that though. He needed to bat for a long time and he didn't. So how did he singlehandedly win the final. Explain again.

Compare that to Imran who stayed till the end in the Nehru cup final against a tougher WI and saw his team through.
[/QUOTE]
Well I didn’t said Kallis won the final single handedly but the tournament single handedly…not just the final…
and when considering final… a five wicket haul is any day better than a 3 wicket + 50…. especially in ODI because you don’t often get five wicket haul like centuries!

It was not Kallis fault the West Indies of late 90s had inferior attack in comparison to that of late 80s… he could only play with what was provided to him.
Even Wisden rated this as the 15th best bowling per ever in 2002….
@kyear2

 

[smash84]

[/QUOTE]
Well I didn’t said Kallis won the final single handedly but the tournament single handedly…not just the final…
and when considering final… a five wicket haul is any day better than a 3 wicket + 50…. especially in ODI because you don’t often get five wicket haul like centuries!


[/QUOTE]



Go and read again what you wrote. You said singlehandedly won it. Now that it is shown that he didn't really win it single handedly in the final, you start changing your words ...seems like Kallis went missing when he needed to stand there to finish the game..and final is the THE most important game in the tournament. So yeah, you were really talking silly then and talking silly now.

And no, not every 5 wicket haul is better than a 3 wicket and a 50. Especially when the 50 is key to winning the match and the batsman stays till the end to guide the team to victory. Not go missing when even half the score isn't done

 

[subshakerz]

I don't see how it's a point in Kallis' favour that he was handled in such an optimal way and he still didn't exactly ever put up great bowling numbers.

Their argument is actually anti-Kallis since it suggests that unlike Sobers, he couldn't handle the pressure of more bowling which would affect his batting.

 

[kyear2]

Their argument is actually anti-Kallis since it suggests that unlike Sobers, he couldn't handle the pressure of more bowling which would affect his batting.

That's not what I'm saying. I think it did affect Sobers's batting and I wish that Sobers was handled the same way Kallis was.
I literally said that multiple times. He was exhausted after many of his marathon spells and that's why he started dropping down the order. How does it make sense to do that to your best batsman.

 

[kyear2]

I don't see how it's a point in Kallis' favour that he was handled in such an optimal way and he still didn't exactly ever put up great bowling numbers.

Great bowling numbers compared to whom though?

Compared to specialist bowlers or other 4th / 5th bowlers?

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Well I didn’t said Kallis won the final single handedly but the tournament single handedly…not just the final…
and when considering final… a five wicket haul is any day better than a 3 wicket + 50…. especially in ODI because you don’t often get five wicket haul like centuries!


[/QUOTE]



Go and read again what you wrote. You said singlehandedly won it. Now that it is shown that he didn't really win it single handedly in the final, you start changing your words ...seems like Kallis went missing when he needed to stand there to finish the game..and final is the THE most important game in the tournament. So yeah, you were really talking silly then and talking silly now.

And no, not every 5 wicket haul is better than a 3 wicket and a 50. Especially when the 50 is key to winning the match and the batsman stays till the end to guide the team to victory. Not go missing when even half the score isn't done
[/QUOTE]
Go to the 18th page and read what i commented…. I said Kallis won the “ENTIRE TOURNAMENT” single handedly….. not just the finals……
to finish the game seems like for you scoring the winnings runs or standing not out matters much more than the impact the player created…Hadn’t Kallis took those 5 South Africa wouldn’t have finished.
You might even think Kallis 113 didn’t matter much since he didn’t take the finishing wicket to finish the game..
I still don’t get why you said Imran was the sole reason why Pakisthan reached the finals and challenged his 12 & 0 wickets with Kallis 113* in the semi final.

Not every 5 wicket haul… but this one cleanly sweeps the floor… 5 wkts in the final of a game in a flat wicket like Dhaka , which includes the wicket of the leading batsmen of the tournament and the finals…. any day always above Imran …
Ijaz Ahamed and Saleem Malik batted better than Imran…. Imran actually finished because he was number 6… You say as if he stood the entire 50 overs and finished
and saying that finishing better than the player who created the most impact in the finals is disgraceful mate… I respect pretty much your comments in this thread except this comparison of the 89 Nehru Cup VS 98 Knockout Trophy… this is ridiculous

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Well I didn’t said Kallis won the final single handedly but the tournament single handedly…not just the final…
and when considering final… a five wicket haul is any day better than a 3 wicket + 50…. especially in ODI because you don’t often get five wicket haul like centuries!


[/QUOTE]



Go and read again what you wrote. You said singlehandedly won it. Now that it is shown that he didn't really win it single handedly in the final, you start changing your words ...seems like Kallis went missing when he needed to stand there to finish the game..and final is the THE most important game in the tournament. So yeah, you were really talking silly then and talking silly now.

And no, not every 5 wicket haul is better than a 3 wicket and a 50. Especially when the 50 is key to winning the match and the batsman stays till the end to guide the team to victory. Not go missing when even half the score isn't done
[/QUOTE]
Do you think that 55* of Imran is better than the 3 wickets he took in the finals just because he stood not out and finished the game

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Well I didn’t said Kallis won the final single handedly but the tournament single handedly…not just the final…
and when considering final… a five wicket haul is any day better than a 3 wicket + 50…. especially in ODI because you don’t often get five wicket haul like centuries!

Go and read again what you wrote. You said singlehandedly won it. Now that it is shown that he didn't really win it single handedly in the final, you start changing your words ...seems like Kallis went missing when he needed to stand there to finish the game..and final is the THE most important game in the tournament. So yeah, you were really talking silly then and talking silly now.

And no, not every 5 wicket haul is better than a 3 wicket and a 50. Especially when the 50 is key to winning the match and the batsman stays till the end to guide the team to victory. Not go missing when even half the score isn't done
[/QUOTE]
Just imagine a person taking (let it be Imran) taking 10 wickets and going for a 0… Can I complain the Imran didn’t win because Imran didn’t finish the match and went out half the score is done…. this extremely silly…
you’re trying true hard to show Imran did better were he wasn’t nearer… This is so silly mate

 

[smash84]

Dude, at least quote the words correctly. I am not even sure where my words are beginning and yours are ending

You don't have to imagine anything, Imran was instrumental in finishing the game and pulling out the team from a bad situation. Also took key wickets. Kallis took wickets and at the time of batting got out when the going got tough. Simple. Imran > Kallis

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Dude, at least quote the words correctly. I am not even sure where my words are beginning and yours are ending

You don't have to imagine anything, Imran was instrumental in finishing the game and pulling out the team from a bad situation. Also took key wickets. Kallis took wickets and at the time of batting got out when the going got tough. Simple. Imran > Kallis

Pardon for my quoting

It’s even simpler
Kallis was instrumental in winning the game…he made sure West Indies collapsed in a flat wicket.
and Imran never made West Indies collapse, he just took some good wickets. Making your opponent score 270+ during late 80s and that is no were near instrumental as Kallis did.
Kallis comfortably by far wins here... anyone can understand that.

and when it comes to batting it was Ijaz- Malik partnership that protected Pakistan from a bad situation… by the time Imran came in Pakistan was far better from the situation you described.. Yes he played well, but never anchored the game like Kallis did with the ball.
and if staying not out or hitting the winnings runs are more important then Akram who scored 6* is more impressive than Ijaz and Malik.
Anyone viewing the scorecard or watched the game can understand that vividly
Kallis>>Imran

and if the whole tournament is taken anyday Kallis becomes more impressive than Imran.

 

[Bolo.]

I don't see how it's a point in Kallis' favour that he was handled in such an optimal way and he still didn't exactly ever put up great bowling numbers.

Used optimally is in reference to his career. He was never used in an optimal way for his bowling figures. Early career he wasn't protected. Just playing with on average 6 bowlers, including 2 ATGs. His role was mainly enforcer- hassling the bats with pace and bounce at stages in the innings where people were struggling to pick up wickets. He had some more genuine opportunities for wickets as well due to being able to extract more swing from an aging ball than the others, but he was never a bowler that could just rip through teams.

Late career he was both aging and bowling within himself, without early career big donkey spells. Focusing on containment when the ball wasn't doing much, and rotating the other bowlers.

There's some transition between these 2 periods when the other bowlers had weakened and he had more opportunity while wanting to bowl fast and attack, but it coincided with his batting taking off. I just don't think he could handle facing 200+ balls a match, slip fielding and bowling a full quota fast/FM. Not sure anyone could. Sobers came closest, but he batted lower, bowled slower, fielded slips less (I think). And Sobers broke his ability to bowl seam in around 30 games.

His averages and WPM under the 3 different long term captains do kinda show this- they roughly correspond with the phases outlined.

 

[kyear2]

Used optimally is in reference to his career. He was never used in an optimal way for his bowling figures. Early career he wasn't protected. Just playing with on average 6 bowlers, including 2 ATGs. His role was mainly enforcer- hassling the bats with pace and bounce at stages in the innings where people were struggling to pick up wickets. He had some more genuine opportunities for wickets as well due to being able to extract more swing from an aging ball than the others, but he was never a bowler that could just rip through teams.

Late career he was both aging and bowling within himself, without early career big donkey spells. Focusing on containment when the ball wasn't doing much, and rotating the other bowlers.

There's some transition between these 2 periods when the other bowlers had weakened and he had more opportunity while wanting to bowl fast and attack, but it coincided with his batting taking off. I just don't think he could handle facing 200+ balls a match, slip fielding and bowling a full quota fast/FM. Not sure anyone could. Sobers came closest, but he batted lower, bowled slower, fielded slips less (I think). And Sobers broke his ability to bowl seam in around 30 games.

His averages and WPM under the 3 different long term captains do kinda show this- they roughly correspond with the phases outlined.

View attachment 39561

Yeah, that's the issue with comparing a 5th bowlers to front line one. They don't get the best of conditions or the ball. Often coming on mid partnership and just being asked to hold on until the 2nd new ball or if one of the front line guys is being carted around the park and containment is required.

I asked a question earlier, who's he being compared to, front line guys of other reserve guys.

He did his job, are we comparing Imran to lower order guys or front line guys? The comp would also be less than flattering.

And that's before we look at the fact that Kallis for the worse of conditions while lower order batsmen comes in later in the innings when the bowlers are more fatigued and often against an older ball, hence easier conditions to bat in.

And that not factoring in the high no. of not outs etc.


Re Sobers though, depending on which part of his career, he did bowl quicker and actually also fielded at 2nd and only moved around to Gibbs where he varied between leg slip and **** leg, so just as intense.
And if course he batted lower only after taking on the ridiculous and self imposed work load. As he said, he just always wanted to be involved while on the field, be it bowling or fielding in the most critical positions.

 

[Bolo.]

Yeah, that's the issue with comparing a 5th bowlers to front line one. They don't get the best of conditions or the ball. Often coming on mid partnership and just being asked to hold on until the 2nd new ball or if one of the front line guys is being carted around the park and containment is required.

I asked a question earlier, who's he being compared to, front line guys of other reserve guys.

He did his job, are we comparing Imran to lower order guys or front line guys? The comp would also be less than flattering.

And that's before we look at the fact that Kallis for the worse of conditions while lower order batsmen comes in later in the innings when the bowlers are more fatigued and often against an older ball, hence easier conditions to bat in.

And that not factoring in the high no. of not outs etc.


Re Sobers though, depending on which part of his career, he did bowl quicker and actually also fielded at 2nd and only moved around to Gibbs where he varied between leg slip and **** leg, so just as intense.
And if course he batted lower only after taking on the ridiculous and self imposed work load. As he said, he just always wanted to be involved while on the field, be it bowling or fielding in the most critical positions.

Agree with most of this. I don't think there is a clear cut relationship between batting position and difficulty when you are looking at positions lower than 5 though. It depends on style and quality of player. It does get easier against tiring bowlers and the old ball (with the caveat that the tail will often see the 2nd new ball). But protecting the tail and hitting out are challenges. Everyone is vulnerable at the start of an innings, and the lower you bat, the fewer opportunities you have to capitalise when set. As an extreme example, I think Bradman would probably average something like 40 if batting 11.

Are you saying Sobers was quicker than Kallis? I thought he was around the FM/MF mark? Kallis went F-FM-MF over his career.