Is Waqar Younis an ATG test bowler?

[DrWolverine]

Waqar is a very curious case.

Statistically speaking he had the greatest bowling peak in the last 100 years.

25 Tests.
163 wickets.
Avg of 17.43
SR of 32.
19 5-Fers.

Outside of that peak
62 Tests
210 wickets
Avg of 28.32
SR of 53.
3 5-Fers. 2 of them against Zim & Ban

 

[DrWolverine]

At his peak, he had Sydney Barnes like figures.
Outside his peak, he had Ishant Sharma like stats.

 

[Johan]

He bashed New Zealand missing all their main bats except Crowe

 

[DrWolverine]

19 5-Fers in 25 Tests is unreal.
Even if the competition was not that great

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I have a higher bar for ATGs and you need 300 wickets for a modern bowler. I consider him borderline.

Garner only got 259, and he's definitely an ATG

 

[subshakerz]

If it never happened before in 150 years, it's unlikely to happen in one specific instance without extraordinary circumstances and in this case the circumstances are....well, you know.

Well this logic was used to question the Hobbs and Bradman achievements.

 

[Johan]

Well this logic was used to question the Hobbs and Bradman achievements.

Yeah...

BY YOU! Anyway, something definitely feels sus about the 1982-83 series, and the explaination of the ball being tampered with heavily just makes so many things make more sense, It shouldn't be written off but I don't think the series should be glorified when it's so controversial and rightfully so.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah...

BY YOU! Anyway, something definitely feels sus about the 1982-83 series, and the explaination of the ball being tampered with heavily just makes so many things make more sense, It shouldn't be written off but I don't think the series should be glorified when it's so controversial and rightfully so.

Well I look at the 1986 home series vs WI.

His figures were even better than the 82/83 series.

He took 18 wickets@11 (!).

And two out of those three matches were officiated by neutral umpires.

So while I think he did tamper and home umpires helped, to me the overwhelming factor was his skill but perhaps even moreso that that was that reverse swing as a formal skill was completely unknown and as a master of it he took full advantage of batsmen ignorance to devastating effect. Batsmen who were used to one script with the old ball suddenly were faced with 90MPH indippers tailing in while new at the crease.

It's very similar to Saqlain in the late 90s with the doosra who used thanks to the mystery effect achieved success never seen before by a spinner in ODIs thanks to unsuspecting bats.

 

[Randomfan]

At his peak, he had Sydney Barnes like figures.
Outside his peak, he had Ishant Sharma like stats.

What do you see as his peak cut off dates?

Ishant's career is better than Waqar's 2/3 of career.

 

[Johan]

Well I look at the 1986 home series vs WI.

His figures were even better than the 82/83 series.

He took 18 wickets@11 (!).

And two out of those three matches were officiated by neutral umpires.

So while I think he did tamper and home umpires helped, to me the overwhelming factor was his skill but perhaps even moreso that that was that reverse swing as a formal skill was completely unknown and as a master of it he took full advantage of batsmen ignorance to devastating effect. Batsmen who were used to one script with the old ball suddenly were faced with 90MPH indippers tailing in while new at the crease.

It's very similar to Saqlain in the late 90s with the doosra who used thanks to the mystery effect achieved success never seen before by a spinner in ODIs thanks to unsuspecting bats.

That series is different because those pitches were proper minefields, I think the top scorer that series was Viv Richards and he made like 185 runs in 5 or 6 innings, nobody averaged 35+ I think. The 82-83 one is just...ugh, pitches were as flat as possible in that one.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The 82-83 one is just...ugh, pitches were as flat as possible in that one.

Imran just too OP imo.

 

[Johan]

Subs is taking Trueman's ATG card if he got 10 less wickets

 

[DrWolverine]

Waqar’s peak is just unmatched.

ODI : 5 5-Fers in 7 ODIs.

Tests : 19 5-Fers in 25 Tests

 

[subshakerz]

Subs is taking Trueman's ATG card if he got 10 less wickets

No different era

 

[subshakerz]

That series is different because those pitches were proper minefields, I think the top scorer that series was Viv Richards and he made like 185 runs in 5 or 6 innings, nobody averaged 35+ I think. The 82-83 one is just...ugh, pitches were as flat as possible in that one.

But Imran was still taking wickets with reverse in all games. I don't think it's just the wickets frankly it was high bowling quality on all sides.

 

[_00_deathscar]

He bashed New Zealand missing all their main bats except Crowe

Did they have any others?

 

[BazBall21]

that series in particular is extremely sus, also because it's kinda unbelievable, like even at the Oval in 1976 it's still kund of believable because Holding had a duke ball and England batting was suspect, missing Geoffrey Boycott and John Edrich. Imran doing that against strong batting lineups on similar roads with Kookabura is unbelievable.

Doubt Holding found much conventional swing. It was hot and bone dry conditions rather than humid and muggy. The outfield looked abrasive and it was days 3 & 5. He might have generated some reverse swing at very high pace.

 

[kyear2]

Doubt Holding found much conventional swing. It was hot and bone dry conditions rather than humid and muggy. The outfield looked abrasive and it was days 3 & 5. He might have generated some reverse swing at very high pace.

I've heard Holding say repeatedly that he never bowled reverse.