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Greatest Bowler

scorpio

U19 Cricketer
I think lillee is a great bowler. His stats and his peers' opinion is enogh to convice any one.

But he got 327/355 wickets either is Oz or england (231 in Oz). he never played in india, sucked in one test in pak and didnt tour much of windies too..

This is where i rate akram,marshall,Mcgrath and hadlee much better. They have performed every where.

Well even kumble has got a record as formidable as any one in india ( avg 21 :O)
Since lillee didnt want to tour india....despite his obvious skills..i dont rate him as the greatest.

Skilled ? yes...but has he actually performed everywhere putting his talent on test.. ? NO
 

suchchin

Cricket Spectator
Lillee is the greatest pacer ever, Akram,McGratch,Hadlee all come after him. He didn't performed well on the pathetic Pakistani wkt, can't blame him much coz the wkt was totally dead!
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
I think scorpio has a good point. Im not sure if I agree with that totally, but a good point none the less.

If the wkts were not favorable for the bowlers then thats a bigger challenge. Imran in 1982/83 crushed the powerful Indian batting lineup on the same failsabad pitch that Lillee complained so much about. Its exactly like Aus being the toughest test for batsmen, we cannot ignore their record in Aus just because its too difficult.

Complaining about weather is a different thing, as sometimes the stupid higher ups in Pak schedule tours in the peak of summer, which is suicide for foreign players and also for local one. But the pitches you have to deal with as a bowler. You cant call a pitch pathetic and ignore it.
 
Then its same with Warne, he has a pathetic record in INdia, then why is he considered as the best ever???

Most test cricketers agree on Lillee being the all time great fast bowler!
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
Not many spinners have done well in India.

And, when we argue about Warne's place in the greats this is one of the biggest question marks.

There are no absolutes in the rankings of cricket greats, no matter who u r talking about, maybe apart from Don, and thats why we debate our points. If there is a good point it would be silly not to acknowledge it.
 
Yeah but warne's record against India is brushed aside and is still claimed as the best!

U have a point on Lille, few other quicks like Beefy too were failures in Subcontinent. But i still think that just the fact that he didn't do well in Sub-Continent doesn't make him an inferior bowler.

Richards,Andy Roberts,Holding are on record having said that they rated Lille as the finmest bowler ever, they have praised Imran/Akram too but they all rate Lillee as the best.
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
The players u cited are not hte only greats, and other great players have their own favorites. And whenever anyone gives their likes they give a reason too, atleast they should.

Imran in his autobiography, which was writtne a while ago, said that one of the main reasons why he admired Lillee as the best bowler of his eneration is the wy Lille fought in the face of adversity in Pak, on placid tracks, and he never gave, an ordinary bowler would have given in a lot earlier. And, thats fair enough.

This autobiography was written a while back, and since then I think I have heard Imran change his opinion and he now rates Marshall as the best, and I think one of the main reasons he gives is Marshall's ability to succeede in all kinds of conditions.
 
To tell u the truth, i do think Marshall was as good as any other bowler, i would put him in the top 3 bowlers of all time.Marshall and Lillee , its very close.

Where exactly do u rate Lillee??
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
I myself just saw a little bit of Lille, not much, and not in his prime anyway. So I am not a good person to judge probably.

But among the greats there isnt much really, the wkts, averages etc are all very close. S/R is not the most important stats in tests, but still Waqar's s/r does distance him from the rest.

In ability, its really difficult to think that anyone could have more ability than Wasim. But he didnt do complete justice to his talent, especially his lenght was too short generally.

If we disregard the stats etc, I'd say if I were picking a team, I would pick Amborse higher than Marshall. And Donald would be high. Whatever I have seen and heard of olding and Roberts (seen very little in Roberts' case), I would like that tandem over any other, even Wasim and Waqar.

Imran's perfomrance in 1982-83 against India is probably the best I have seen any fast bowler bowl in a complete series, considering the quality of opposition and bowling conditions.
 

scorpio

U19 Cricketer
Roy: You sound sensible. Thx for your balanced views.

I am not sayin lillee isnt good. Infact he is one the best ever bowlers to play. I have read his Art of fast bowling and seen some clips of his bowling. He certainly had the pace, skills and mental strength to perform in india..

But unfortunately in the one chance he had he sucked and ended up moaning about it.

We can argue the same about warne. he is a spinner who got it all..but in reality he came a distant second in india. So in lillee's case too anything could have happened. So when it comes to rating the absolute greatest we should probably stick to the ones who actually performed.

This reminds of a view about kumble. When he was at his peak during 93-96 every body was writig abt how unlucky he was to miss out on the 91 tour to oz and 92 world cup and how the pitch would have suited him blah blah blah.

But when he got the chance we got to see how good he actually is....so thts wht i am saying..we can speculate but the results do tell a different story.

cheers
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
Although 'Death' for me was probably the greatest, Richard Hadlee IMHO would be the 'cleverest' fast bowler I have ever seen. He was the master of line and length -subtle changes, 3 or 4 balls 6-9 inches outside off stump, one on the sticks and then one a foot outside and a bit fuller, inducing the rash shot. Mind you, Holding was none too shabby at that either - especially towards the end of his career.
The nearest to him in sheer brain (sussing a batsman and getting him to play at balls he didn't want to) would be a toss-up between Beefy in his pomp and Alan Donald, or maybe Kapil Dev. It becomes a mind game (and usually the batsman is the loser).
Tell you an Englishman who is learning that craft at the moment - Matthew Hoggard. He's proved to me this summer that he's not all brawn and bluster.
 

scorpio

U19 Cricketer
Reminds me of a book i read abt hadlee. He and lillee were easily the most cerebral of all fast bowlers.
Hadlee preferred 4 spells of 5 overs day..no more. He reckoned that he could be incisive during each spell could get a wicket each time and amazingly thats wht he did. it is scary to think what he would have done with support.

Lillee had remarkable spirit and a huge reportoire.

Dont know much abt holding.

As for kapil i dont think he was the smartest knife in the drawer but i have to give him credit for his sheer fitness..boy what a long injury free career he had..
 

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