Greatest Bowler

[cozmiccoyoete]

"And Malcolm Marshall's strike rate is around 46. Does this instantly mean that Waqar is that much a better bowler?"

As if Waqar and Marshall played their cricket at the same time,time period do count, u can't just compare two pacers of differnt era by stats.

"I think he's actually a better bowler now. Smarter, if you will"

When was the last time Waqar took 5 wkts in a test match?? Better bowler? surely it must be a joke.


"And cozmic, since you seem so intent on telling us how bad the openers are, let's see you do better."

Don't worry buddy, unlike u,i won't be judging a batter by a single innings, nor would provide u distorted facts in support of my argument !!


[Edited on 7/18/02 by cozmiccoyoete]

 

[Anil]

A list of the world's greatest spinners would include:

Shane Warne
Lance Gibbs
Bhagwat Chandrasekhar
Muthiah Muralitharan
Bishen Bedi
Erapalli Prasanna
Bill O'Reilly
Abdul Qadir
Derek Underwood
Subhash Gupte

not necessarily in that order.

 

[scorpio]

waqar and wasim despite thier variety and skills and speed can by no means be classified as grt.

both of them seemed to have a remarkable skill to blow away opposition when on form. regardless of the batsmen at the other end. both those days didnt come everyday. on avg days they seem to spray and pitch it short. some thing mcgrath,ambrose never do.

they dismissed a enormous number of tailender making thus greatly inflating their figures. this is where mcgrath , ambrose,kapil and warne seem to surge ahead ( oh add donald to that list) ability to get top order wickets and perform around thier peak all the time was some thing waqar and wasim never did.

 

[aussie_beater]

Wasim and Waqar are not run of the mill bowlers and that's what puts them apart.They defined fast bowling in the nineties and their contribution towards perfecting reverse swing and make the ball move beyond the wildest imaginations of most others, is the stuff of legends and that's why I put them both in my all time greatest list.

 

[yorker]

Waseem Akram is the greatest left armer ever, to say that he got most of his wkts of the tail enders is a JOKE,Ponting recently described him as the best bowler he had ever faced after Ambrose.Akram finished the career of many batters, to compare him with some of the bowlers Scorpio mentioned is STUPID.
Ofcourse Akram is not the bowler he was once, but then age catches everyone.Akram is and will be among the top 5 bowler of all time, along with Marshall,Lillee,Ambrose and Holding.

And if both W's were getting the wkts of tailenders in the peak in '90's , then just who was getting the main batters???? I guess Ata-ur-rehman, or Aqib Javed or perhaps they were all getting run outs!

 

[suchchin]

Noone can perform at his best all the time, Kapil got two wkts per tests in his last 30 tests!!

Both W's were the one of the best bowlers when in their youth, now its a different story.All this talk of them getting the tailenders is rubbish (Waqar though got a significant no of tailenders after his injury when he wasn't the same bowler he was once).

Top ten would be, not in any particular order

1lillee
2Marshall
3Hadlee
4Akram
5Imran
6Ambrose
7McGrath
8Waqar
9Holding
10Garner

 

[scorpio]

Here we go.

I didnt mean to call a kapil a grt bowler or equate him with akram or waqar. just he fitted that argument. anyway let me shoot down this notion of akram being one of the greatest...which i beleive is highly skewed.


let me get some stats. this is from the site cricketx.com. now defunct. basically i am going to divide the top order wickets they get from their total wickets and use it as one of my arguments.

Stats could be little out of date...but the best i can do..

Now let me rank them as per their rating

1. gough - 159/228 - 69.7
2. donald - 218/325 - 67.07
3. ambrose - 269/405 - 66.4
4. mcgrat - 235/359 - 65.2
5. mcdermott - 190/291 - 65.2
6. srinath - 136/210 - 64.7
7. kapil - 280/434 - 64.5
8. marshall - 238/376 -63.2
9. imran - 228/362 - 62.9
10. waqar - 208/332 - 62.5
11. pollock - 155/253 - 61.2
12. hadlee - 262/431 - 60.7
13. walsh - 311/519 - 59.9
14. botham - 229/383 - 59.7
15. Wasim - 235/414 - 56.7


Around 60 % seems to be the norm. walsh can be excused as he was not a opening bowler for quite a while. now where does akram stand ?

Waqar had quite appalling stats (skewed i mean) a few yrs ago. but in recent times he has improved like hell.

Again akram is a very good bowler. can bowl more unplayable balls( has probably bowled them more than any one)Extreme variety. But he lacked consistency. Tends to spray and bowl short.

WHen he puts it together yeah he is the best. But how often does that happen. He certainly has finished a few careers but so have the others.

Hope this answers afew questions.

cheers

 

[royGilchrist]

actually Sunny Gavaskar should be higher than all these guys as he got one wicket and that was a top order batsman, so his percentage is 100%

 

[suchchin]

LOL!

If we go by that list, then Gough is the all time great bowler and even Srinath is better than Marshall, Imran, Hadlee and Akram! Is it true?

The mistake u make is that u forget that Akram/Waqar used to play in a team with atleast 2-3 match winning pacers, as such it often happens that one bowler goes away with the initial wkts while the other mops off the tailenders.Guys like Kapil,Nath,Gough were usually the sole match winning bowler in the team, as such their top order batters wkts tally were higher.What do u expect to happen when Nath pairs with guys like Prasad/Mohanty/Kuruvilla ??? Or Kapil going in with Prabharkar/Lal ???
I remember Marshall saying once that had he been in the Indian team he would had got atleast 700 wkts coz of lack of quality pacers in the Indian team.

I rate Marshall higher than W's, and much higher than Gough,McGrath,McDermot and Nath.The list is crap, it doesn't prove a thing!

[Edited on 7/20/02 by suchchin]

 

[yorker]

Such,
Yeah i agree with u, if Akram or Waqar had been the sole quality pacers then their top order batters wkts tally would had been much higher.Forget W's, u have someone like McDermott and Nath up there much higher than Marshall and Hadlee, how can u take the list seriously??

 

[OZOZ]

Interesting point.Taken into account the quality of current Indian Pace attack, Zahir Khan will soon be the all time great pacer because i honestly don't see anyone else from the Indian team capable getting the scalp of top order batters!
Does anyone of u remember Danny Morrison? he scores around 66+!! Danny,Nath,MCDermott better than Marshall??? LOL!

[Edited on 7/20/02 by OZOZ]

 

[aussie_beater]

This comparison using obscure statistical analysis is fraught with danger.Yes, you have to see how may wickets did a bowler take but then you have to consider other things as well, like how effective or technically perfect one was etc.

 

[royGilchrist]

Aussie, thats the exact point I am trying to make, how can one ignore the number of total wkts taken by the bowlers. So basically if a bowler takes 1 wkt and that happens to be of a top batsman he is the best ever as his %age would be 100%?

Also, there is a very basic flaw in this analysis, I would explain that by an example:

1. gough - 159/228 - 69.7
4. mcgrat - 235/359 - 65.2

Gough comes in at 1, and McGrath comes in at 4. McGrath took 235 top order wkts and 124 tail end wkts. But if he had taken a total of 338 wkts instead of 359 (235 top order and 103 tail end wkts) he would have been number one. So this is anohter way of saying that taking tail end wkts is worse than taking no wkts!! What a load of crap. I'm not a big fan of using strike rate in tests either, as sometimes it could get a bit misleading but its kinda useful also. But this stat of seeing the %age of top order wkts is just simply misleading, and should e used very very carefully indeed.

This kind of a comparison can only be good if we are considering two bowlers with a very similar number of wkts, matches and average, and then we want to separate the two, we can use the top order wkts %age as a criteria.

 

[royGilchrist]

BTW, when the hell would become something else other than a bloody waterboy, this is frankly annoying

 

[luckyeddie]

When you've carried enough water, Roy. When our thirsts are slaked.

At which point, the crowd rises and the gallant LuckyEddie holds his pen up to the crowd, having reached 3 figures 8D

 

[scorpio]

i used the stats just as a small indicator not to prove everything.

Roy: Gough is indeed a good bowler. THe reasons why he has such a good record is that he (just like srinath) seems to get the initial break thros and then gets wicket when the ball starts reverse swinging or the second new ball is taken.

I am not saying akram isnt a good bowler or anthing. Infact in the top 10 i put up i had him at no 4. He certainly has all the goods. But the question is does he deliver consistently like ambrose or mcgrath or a marshall ?

I have seen so many matches when he just seems to spray the ball around instead of playing consistently at one spot. Thts my point. Being the greatest bowler is not abt what you could do...but what you actually do.

And btw Mcdermott was not such a bad bowler. And this view abt kapil dev being lucky tht he was the sole wicket taker is absolutely simplistic, anyway i will do a separate thread on kapil to dispel the notion that he is lucky.

cheers

 

[royGilchrist]

Akram is not consistent as Mcgrath, Marshall or Ambrose??? Hmm....

I have no idea what u r smoking buddy, FYI, Wasim Akram has taken 414 test wkts in 104 tests at an average of 23.62 and a strike rate of 54.6!!

An average of 23.62, do u read that, its quite special really, 414 wkts at 23.62!

 

[scorpio]

Akram is not consistent as Mcgrath, Marshall or Ambrose??? Hmm....

I have no idea what u r smoking buddy, FYI, Wasim Akram has taken 414 test wkts in 104 tests at an average of 23.62 and a strike rate of 54.6!!

An average of 23.62, do u read that, its quite special really, 414 wkts at 23.62!

u reckon i should stay away from pot ?

i said akram loses out when compared to MCGRATH, MARSHALL, DONALD AND AMBROSE.

I still stick to my stand that his record is flattered by his ability to bowl yorkers and blast out tailenders which certainly is not a bad thing..

But instead of leaving the opposition at 50 for 3 akram is more prone to coming back and reducing a team from 350 for 5 to 360 allout.
THen he has a 5 wicket haul and ppl go gaga over his skills. But the fact that he some times wastes the new ball is glossed over.

Thts my point bud

 

[royGilchrist]

Actually to tell you the truth, I do agree with you partly. When Imran was around to groom Wasim, he was by far the most potent fast bowler in the world, Ambrose, Marshall, Patterson etc not withstanding. But since 1992, Wasim has become a shadow of a bowler he once was. The simple reason, short pitched bowling! He has totally wasted himself, he bowls too short thinking he can intimidate batsmen into getting out, but invariably it doesnt happen with top order batsmen, Ganguly might be an exception. Another simple reason for short pitched reason is economy rate, Akram has always had the mentality of hating to give runs, and unconciously fast bowlers feel short pitched bowling would not give away runs.

All that being said, its difficult to separate Wasim for m the rest so emphatically, overall he is in the same league, but with his rare talent he should have done more.

 

[lord_of_darkness]

what is wasim akrams run rate like ?