England.....Where to from here?

[Borges]

Why all this doom and gloom? Ok, so you lost a test match to Pakistan: the way Pakistan played this game, it was no disgrace to loose to them.
Hadn't almost the same team beaten South Africa convincingly earlier?

What are all you guys going to say after almost the same team wins the second test and squares this series; after you win the home series against India?

 

[theegyptian]

Why all this doom and gloom? Ok, so you lost a test match to Pakistan: the way Pakistan played this game, it was no disgrace to loose to them.
Hadn't almost the same team beaten South Africa convincingly earlier?

What are all you guys going to say after almost the same team wins the second test and squares this series; after you win the home series against India?

In isolation you could say it wasn't the end of the world. Pakistan had some great preparation and England were likely at their most vulnerable of summer - Some of the english guys had just come back from IPL, others didn't have that much cricket behind them. Pakistan played really well.

But you only really have to go back through the recent test series' to see. Lose to NZ and AUs in winter. Draw with WI at home, beat an understrength SA. Draw with Bangladesh and Lose to India away. Results if anything getting worse and if you say Bairstow, Root, Stokes, Moeen(lol), Woakes should be coming to their peaks and Anderson, Broad, Cook still at highish levels then you'd say the team is underperforming.

 

[Borges]

The team is clearly underperforming.
But not having won away can't be the rationale for desperation; it is rare these days for any one to win away from home.

 

[wpdavid]

The team is clearly underperforming.
But not having won away can't be the rationale for desperation; it is rare these days for any one to win away from home.

Yeah, but most teams don't get bowled out for 58, even with Boult and Southee performing as well as they did.
And we weren't exactly convincing at home to WI. I thought we won it 2-1 but even so, they shouldn't be losing a test at home to those opponents.

But it isn't just the results. Broad and Cook look like they are in decline. Anderson can't keep going for ever. Bairstow's performances have tailed off. Ditto Root, although that may have something to do with being captain. Stokes, to be fair, has only played one match since his enforced absence. Beyond them, we've tried so many players over the last few years who just haven't looked the part. The one exception was TRJ, who has a long term injury. The prognosis really isn't great.

 

[AndrewB]

In isolation you could say it wasn't the end of the world. Pakistan had some great preparation and England were likely at their most vulnerable of summer - Some of the english guys had just come back from IPL, others didn't have that much cricket behind them. Pakistan played really well.

But you only really have to go back through the recent test series' to see. Lose to NZ and AUs in winter. Draw with WI at home, beat an understrength SA. Draw with Bangladesh and Lose to India away. Results if anything getting worse and if you say Bairstow, Root, Stokes, Moeen(lol), Woakes should be coming to their peaks and Anderson, Broad, Cook still at highish levels then you'd say the team is underperforming.

England beat Wi at home (2-1).

 

[theegyptian]

England beat Wi at home (2-1).

yes wpdavid had already corrected me. Still a poor display.

 

[FBU]

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

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[TheJediBrah]

Why all this doom and gloom? Ok, so you lost a test match to Pakistan: the way Pakistan played this game, it was no disgrace to loose to them.
Hadn't almost the same team beaten South Africa convincingly earlier?

What are all you guys going to say after almost the same team wins the second test and squares this series; after you win the home series against India?

That's the bare minimum acceptable result. Losing either of these series to a sub-continental team in England would be dire. Drawing the Pak series and winning the India one is already a bit disappointing.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

That's the bare minimum acceptable result. Losing either of these series to a sub-continental team in England would be dire. Drawing the Pak series and winning the India one is already a bit disappointing.

Yeah - c'mon England, you've been breaking Australian hearts at home since 2005, stop drawing and losing to everyone else.

 

[Kirkut]

Bring back KP from retirement.

 

[Borges]

Losing either of these series to a sub-continental team in England would be dire.

Not really, since they have been routinely humiliating the non-subcontinental team Australia at home.
They have also convincingly outplayed South Africa at home and earlier had beaten them away.

Placed into context, a random drawn series against the sub-continental Pakistan is not overly significant, it is not the end of the world.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Not really, since they have been routinely humiliating the non-subcontinental team Australia at home.
They have also convincingly outplayed South Africa at home and earlier had beaten them away.

Placed into context, a random drawn series against the sub-continental Pakistan is not overly significant, it is not the end of the world.

Convincingly? Dang, I still reckon if Philander didn't get sick, SA win that series last year.

No Steyn, no Abbott, no ABDV and Markram and Ngidi not discovered yet. I think you're being a way too generous to England there who I firmly believe got lucky to Philander getting ill.

It isn't just the when factor, it is the improvement in certain teams that is a factor too. I know Indian fans are very excited to see BK, Bumrah and Yadav bowl later this year. Even I want to see Rahul bat soon let alone Pant take over from Saha.

NZ is really pleased with how Wagner and CdG have kicked on in recent years. Even our weakest link in Nicholls did a job vs England.

Australia are liking Pat Cummins efforts (although their batting for the next 12 months is poxy). Paine is an improvement on Wade.

Who is kicking on for England? Who is your Markram or Ngidi?

You had TRJ - and he's sadly gone. But that's the last exciting English test talent since possibly Ben Stokes reintroduction in 2015.

England is going backwards at the moment and still persisting with Mark Wood, who is very ordinary. I still want to see Ben Foakes play as well.

 

[tooextracool]

Not really, since they have been routinely humiliating the non-subcontinental team Australia at home.
They have also convincingly outplayed South Africa at home and earlier had beaten them away.

Placed into context, a random drawn series against the sub-continental Pakistan is not overly significant, it is not the end of the world.

When Bayliss was appointed, we were looking for an opener to partner with Cook, a third seamer to go with Broad and Anderson, a long term spin bowling solution and a solid middle order. We've blooded a couple of dozen players since the start of the Bayliss era and one could argue that not one of the above issues are closer to being solved and in fact have actually unearthed new issues to add to the list above (inability to score 100s, Cook in terminal decline etc.). So one could argue that we have spent three years papering over the cracks with not much to show for it. We seem to be on this perpetual merry-go-round where we select the first batsman to come off the strip rather than investing in players who we think represent the future of English cricket. Losing this series would actually be a blessing in disguise.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Not really, since they have been routinely humiliating the non-subcontinental team Australia at home.
They have also convincingly outplayed South Africa at home and earlier had beaten them away.

Not sure why you think this is relevant

Placed into context, a random drawn series against the sub-continental Pakistan is not overly significant, it is not the end of the world.

Not in a 2 Test series especially, but it's still disappointing, especially if they don't put India away convincingly as well

When Bayliss was appointed, we were looking for an opener to partner with Cook, a third seamer to go with Broad and Anderson, a long term spin bowling solution and a solid middle order. We've blooded a couple of dozen players since the start of the Bayliss era and one could argue that not one of the above issues are closer to being solved and in fact have actually unearthed new issues to add to the list above (inability to score 100s, Cook in terminal decline etc.). So one could argue that we have spent three years papering over the cracks with not much to show for it. We seem to be on this perpetual merry-go-round where we select the first batsman to come off the strip rather than investing in players who we think represent the future of English cricket. Losing this series would actually be a blessing in disguise.

Everyone always says that Bayliss was hired as more of an ODI-focus and that seems to be working. Just split the coaching jobs. Can't be that big of a deal surely and it means less work and less time away from the family too.

 

[tooextracool]

Everyone always says that Bayliss was hired as more of an ODI-focus and that seems to be working. Just split the coaching jobs. Can't be that big of a deal surely and it means less work and less time away from the family too.

The England ODI turnaround actually started under his deputy Paul Fabrace so I find it hard to give him too much credit there. I still fail to see what Bayliss provides to English cricket unless we are to consider lacking in technical nous or a dearth of knowledge of the county circuit to be skills that pair well with his hands-off attitude to coaching.

 

[Borges]

Well, if the team is the best in the world in one form of cricket; it can't be the case that the country is not producing cricketing talent.

I'm quite glad that that after the jolt from Pakistan, the present team management didn't go back to Moeen Ali because 'he can also bat a bit'.
The attempt to cover batting deficiencies by picking non-penetrative bowlers based on their ability to hold a bat is what every team does.
I think England needs to get away from that mentality, even if it means that the batting may be somewhat weak till replacements are identified and groomed.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Well, if the team is the best in the world in one form of cricket; it can't be the case that the country is not producing cricketing talent.

I'm quite glad that that after the jolt from Pakistan, the present team management didn't go back to Moeen Ali because 'he can also bat a bit'.
The attempt to cover batting deficiencies by picking non-penetrative bowlers based on their ability to hold a bat is what every team does.
I think England needs to get away from that mentality, even if it means that the batting may be somewhat weak till replacements are identified and groomed.

I know it doesn't men he should get picked now regardless, but (and my memory may be failing me here) didn't Moeen bowl England to victory a couple of times last season? Taking a lot of wickets?

 

[tooextracool]

Moeen is actually an extremely useful player in England where he averages 38 with the bat and 33 with the ball. The key for me is to reset expectations - Moeen as a 5th bowling option and lower order batsman is a useful addition to the side. However, in conditions where we need a primary spinner to bowl 20-30 overs, we should look elsewhere or have him supplement a primary spinner.

 

[morgieb]

I know it doesn't men he should get picked now regardless, but (and my memory may be failing me here) didn't Moeen bowl England to victory a couple of times last season? Taking a lot of wickets?

He did yes. Trouble is apart from the South Africa series he’s had only one other good series with the ball - the one against India. Aside from that he’s either been a liability at worse or an expensive wicket-taker at best. He’s had some success with the bat but otherwise....

 

[TheJediBrah]

He did yes. Trouble is apart from the South Africa series he’s had only one other good series with the ball - the one against India. Aside from that he’s either been a liability at worse or an expensive wicket-taker at best. He’s had some success with the bat but otherwise....

A big part of why he was dropped though was his failure in Australia though. That's 5 tests in a place where finger spinners almost always have bad times, even the great ones.