Curtly Ambrose vs Dennis Lillee

[subshakerz]

1. Lillee suffered an injury very early in his career
2. Lillee missed out due to the Kerry Packer series

Yes. Lillee had three phases. Before injury, post injury, and post WSC. His pace declined by the late 70s. He was a consistent wickettaker throughout.

Period	Matches	Wickets	Average	5WI	10WM
Overall	70	355	23.92	23	7
1971-Feb 1973	11	51	24.15	4	1
Nov 1974-Mar 1977	21	120	23.20	8	3
Dec 1979-end	38	184	24.32	11	3

 

[DrWolverine]

I rate Lillee below some all-time greats because he never had the chance to prove himself in the subcontinent through no fault of his own. Despite this, I believe he possessed the skills, talent and most importantly pace required to succeed on any kind of pitch.

 

[subshakerz]

I rate Lillee below some all-time greats because he never had the chance to prove himself in the subcontinent through no fault of his own. Despite this, I believe he possessed the skills, talent and most importantly pace required to succeed on any kind of pitch.

Yes same. Unfortunately here is he often treated as a green track bully based on one prepared wicket disaster series in Pak in 79.

 

[sayon basak]

I mean that's not close isn't it if there are 4-5 places between them? Obviously I'm not suggesting folks think 20 places between them.

That is close. I don't know how one can say otherwise.

BTW where do you rate Trueman?

 

[subshakerz]

That is close. I don't know how one can say otherwise.

BTW where do you rate Trueman?

Top ten pacer.

 

[Coronis]

What's astonishing is someone posted that at his peak, he took around 6 wpm. There is an argument that his average and sr were helped out by having other greats. IMO, that's the nature of cricket and he's not unique to Malcolm but how does one account for the wpm (particularly at his peak).

low SR + decent-high workload = high WPM

I mean that's not close isn't it if there are 4-5 places between them? Obviously I'm not suggesting folks think 20 places between them.

Just because there are multiple players between them, doesn’t mean they aren’t close. The gaps are generally considered very small. Just means a bunch of players are considered at the same/similar level.

 

[subshakerz]

Just because there are multiple players between them, doesn’t mean they aren’t close. The gaps are generally considered very small. Just means a bunch of players are considered at the same/similar level.

You are correct. I suppose when we say close it's subjective.

I think general perception is that they belong in different mini-tiers. That is what I was referring to.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

low SR + decent-high workload = high WPM



Just because there are multiple players between them, doesn’t mean they aren’t close. The gaps are generally considered very small. Just means a bunch of players are considered at the same/similar level.

And unprecedented competition for wickets. Dont forget about that....

 

[subshakerz]

And unprecedented competition for wickets. Dont forget about that....

When Ambrose had more competition for wickets in his first career half, he was bowling nearly Lillees load of work per test.

When he had less competition in his second half, he was bowling 10 over less on average than Lillee per game.

So how do you account for this?

 

[Sliferxxxx]

When Ambrose had more competition for wickets in his first career half, he was bowling nearly Lillees load of work per test.

When he had less competition in his second half, he was bowling 10 over less on average than Lillee per game.

So how do you account for this?

Subz, I've moved on past Ambrose. He was probably less potent at home than Lillee. But as bowlers, overall, I'd rate Ambrose slightly higher.

Look at the South African 1998 series to see what generally happened. Ambrose would play the first few test of a series then break down. None of that is taken into account.

The series in Pakistan '97, Wi lost the first 2 tests by an innings, no shot at bowling in the 2nd innings. Maybe he bowled less due to a declining WI team that conceded more innings defeats. That speaks for itself. I honestly haven't looked into it, because it won't change my overall rating of Curtly.

 

[Coronis]

When Ambrose had more competition for wickets in his first career half, he was bowling nearly Lillees load of work per test.

When he had less competition in his second half, he was bowling 10 over less on average than Lillee per game.

So how do you account for this?

Aw geez subz idk, maybe because his shoulder hurt and he couldn’t bowl as much as he could before?

 

[Coronis]

And unprecedented competition for wickets. Dont forget about that....

Meh. You look at Lillee and Ambrose and their teammates took a similar amount of WPM as Marshall’s did.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Meh. You look at Lillee and Ambrose and their teammates took a similar amount of WPM as Marshall’s did.

Ambrose and Walsh were literally two of Marshalls teammates and then there are Holding, Garner and Bishop. Lillee didn't play with any bowlers of that wicket taking quality.

 

[subshakerz]

Aw geez subz idk, maybe because his shoulder hurt and he couldn’t bowl as much as he could before?

I mean yeah, I bring that up and it affected him as an overall bowler.

 

[Coronis]

Ambrose and Walsh were literally two of Marshalls teammates and then there are Holding, Garner and Bishop. Lillee didn't play with any bowlers of that wicket taking quality.

WPM of teammates

Marshall: 12.00 SR 61.90
Lillee: 11.70 SR 66.98
Ambrose: 11.64 SR 64.23

Not that big of a difference.

 

[subshakerz]

Ambrose and Walsh were literally two of Marshalls teammates and then there are Holding, Garner and Bishop. Lillee didn't play with any bowlers of that wicket taking quality.

But you missed my point. Ambrose was still bowling around Lillees load then, he wasn't losing opportunities for wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

WPM of teammates

Marshall: 12.00 SR 61.90
Lillee: 11.70 SR 66.98
Ambrose: 11.64 SR 64.23

Not that big of a difference.

Thanks I could have used this stat in recent arguments.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

WPM of teammates

Marshall: 12.00 SR 61.90
Lillee: 11.70 SR 66.98
Ambrose: 11.64 SR 64.23

Not that big of a difference.

OK so I dont want to hear certain posters put Marshalls outstanding average and sr down to having class teammates. You lot need to make up your minds...

 

[Coronis]

OK so I dont want to hear certain posters put Marshalls outstanding average and sr down to having class teammates. You lot need to make up your minds...

… I literally said decent bowling load and low sr and you argued against me…

 

[Sliferxxxx]

… I literally said decent bowling load and low sr and you argued against me…

My comment wasn't directed at you....