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Brian Lara vs Sunil Gavaskar (Away from home)

Better away from home?


  • Total voters
    17

DrWolverine

International Vice-Captain
True. Lara was great against Murali & Warne.

But you can’t say Sunny was poor against spin. It’s just that he never faced those two.

Sunny scored centuries against Lance Gibbs(his first tour), Derek Underwood(both home and away), Abdul Qadir(home and away). Perhaps his best ever knock was in his final test scoring 96 on Day 5 on a minefield of a pitch proving his defensive class.
 

Johan

International Coach
Lara is better against spin and seamers, Sunny is better at counteracting express pace bowling, both have their advantages and disadvantages. Sunny gets Pakistan/New Zealand and Lara gets Australia/Sri Lanka.
 

Johan

International Coach
I mean, Lara has Subs as his detractor against fast bowling, Sunny has Dennis Lillee and Michael Holding as his critics on fast wickets, not the same thing.
 

Johan

International Coach
also, Sachin averages roughly the same in games with Allan Donald/Wasim Akram, and less in games with Glenn McGrath, he has a few more marquee performances but completely loses his trademark consistency that defines him.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I mean, Lara has Subs as his detractor against fast bowling, Sunny has Dennis Lillee and Michael Holding as his critics on fast wickets, not the same thing.
Both have somewhat dodgy records in this regard but Gavaskar at least did very well against Imran and scored tons against the best WI attack. He was weaker against Lillee and Hadlee.

Lara had a weakness against fast deliveries aimed at his body that continued until career end. He struggled against Harmison and Flintoff in the 2000s.

I would take Lara over Gavaskar against medium pace and spin, and Gavaskar against high pace.
 

Johan

International Coach
Both have somewhat dodgy records in this regard but Gavaskar at least did very well against Imran and scored tons against the best WI attack. He was weaker against Lillee and Hadlee.

Lara had a weakness against fast deliveries aimed at his body that continued until career end. He struggled against Harmison and Flintoff in the 2000s.

I would take Lara over Gavaskar against medium pace and spin, and Gavaskar against high pace.
Lara is better against spin and seamers, Sunny is better at counteracting express pace bowling, both have their advantages and disadvantages. Sunny gets Pakistan/New Zealand and Lara gets Australia/Sri Lanka.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
also, Sachin averages roughly the same in games with Allan Donald/Wasim Akram, and less in games with Glenn McGrath, he has a few more marquee performances but completely loses his trademark consistency that defines him.
This is a simplification. I don't know how many times it has to be explained.

Tendulkar vs Lara against Donald:
Tendulkar played Donald in four series, except for the first as a teen he was dismissed twice, was only dismissed once in each of the rest. Scored two tons and a high class 97.

Lara against prime Donald in the 90s was dismissed 6 times in 6 tests, clearly struggling against the bounce. Then he played him late career at less pace in 2001, also never scored a ton.

Tendulkar vs Lara against 2WS: Tendulkar played his first series against them as a teenager on debut, and then in 99 when he was never dismissed by either and scored that classic 136.

Lara played seven tests, dismissed five times and never scored a ton.

In context, Tendulkar was clearly better than Lara against those bowlers.

Tendulkar against McGrath: Only played two full series in 99 and 2001 against McGrath, did well in both, 2004/5 was playing injured.
 

Johan

International Coach
This is a simplification. I don't know how many times it has to be explained.

Tendulkar vs Lara against Donald:
Tendulkar played Donald in four series, except for the first as a teen he was dismissed twice, was only dismissed once in each of the rest. Scored two tons and a high class 97.

Lara against prime Donald in the 90s was dismissed 6 times in 6 tests, clearly struggling against the bounce. Then he played him late career in 2001, also never scored a ton.

Tendulkar vs Lara against 2WS: Tendulkar played his first series against them as a teenager on debut, and then in 99 when he was never dismissed by either and scored that classic 136.

Lara played seven tests, dismissed five times and never scored a ton.

In context, Tendulkar was clearly better than Lara against those bowlers.

Tendulkar against McGrath: Only played two full series in 99 and 2001 against McGrath, did well in both, 2004/5 was playing injured.
1. while Donald dismissed Lara more, dismissals to Handle Cronje is also an issue and reflective of a problem that would stand out with Tendulkar throughout his career, a ball pitched outside off stump that cuts in and he was absolutely not comfortable against it, the trick worked against him all the time and was used by James Anderson (9 dismissals) and Muttiah Muralitharan (8 dismissals).

2. Sachin did make 2 hundreds against Donald but still his average in the games with Donald is a very low 32, and Sachin got many tests with Donald at the peak of his powers, both home and away while Lara only played Donald at the worst point in his career (1998) and when he had his shoulder problems (2000), averaging so low is still a problem even if he made two classic hundreds.

3. once again, Lara played the Ws and failed in late 90s when he was at the bottom, Sachin played against that Pakistan attack at his peak and outputted

0 (3)
136 (273)
6 (11)
29 (65)
0 (1)
9 (13)

If he had gone to the end with the chennai test and won the game, that'd be something but sadly that's not what happened.

consistently struggling with Saqlain's quality offbreaks and being done in by being caught offguard by the doosra, Lara, once again showing against high class bowling Sachin didn't make much, even if he didn't get out to Wasim or Donald, I'm not gonna reward him for getting out to Cronje or Saqlain.

4. Lara is plain better against McGrath, even if you limit it to Pre 2004 stuff, Sachin averages 42 with McGrath while Lara generally averages 45, Sachin was given bad decisions in 1999 while Lara in 2005, and we don't remove Lara's 2000 series where Lara had shoulder issues so I don't know why we must remove the 2004 series with Tendulkar's tennis elbow.

all in all, I agree that Sachin was generally a better player of fast bowling than Lara but He's not all that achieved against great fast bowling either, he has one great pacer he scored against in late career but otherwise not all that against great bowling attacks including a great fast bowler.
 
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subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Lara is better against spin and seamers, Sunny is better at counteracting express pace bowling, both have their advantages and disadvantages. Sunny gets Pakistan/New Zealand and Lara gets Australia/Sri Lanka.
Not sure Lara gets Australia. He averages sub 40 against McGrath there.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
1. while Donald dismissed Lara more, dismissals to Handle Cronje is also an issue and reflective of a problem that would stand out with Tendulkar throughout his career, a ball pitched outside off stump that cuts in and he was absolutely not comfortable against it, the trick worked against him all the time and was used by James Anderson (9 dismissals) and Muttiah Muralitharan (8 dismissals).
Irrelevant to his performance against Donald.

2. Sachin did make 2 hundreds against Donald but still his average in the games with Donald is a very low 32, and Sachin got many tests with Donald at the peak of his powers, both home and away while Lara only played Donald at the worst point in his career (1998) and when he had his shoulder problems (2000), averaging so low is still a problem even if he made two classic hundreds.
Bad form is no excuse. Injuries and age are valid excuses. Especially when part of that is due to Lara's own lack of professionalism.

3. once again, Lara played the Ws and failed in late 90s when he was at the bottom, Sachin played against that Pakistan attack at his peak and outputted

0 (3)
136 (273)
6 (11)
29 (65)
0 (1)
9 (13)
Again, the first was his debut series and Waqar had debuted and Wasim hadn't peaked yet. That performance is irrelevant. The second series neither Wasim and Waqar dismissed him and he played them comfortably.

consistently struggling with Saqlain's quality offbreaks and being done in by being caught offguard by the doosra, Lara, once again showing against high class bowling Sachin didn't make much, even if he didn't get out to Wasim or Donald, I'm not gonna reward him for getting out to Cronje or Saqlain.
It's not rewarding. We are asking who is better versus these specific pacers, Saqlain and Hansie are irrelevant. And Lara also had issues against Saqlain.

4. Lara is plain better against McGrath, even if you limit it to Pre 2004 stuff, Sachin averages 42 with McGrath while Lara generally averages 45, Sachin was given bad decisions in 1999 while Lara in 2005, and we don't remove Lara's 2000 series where Lara had shoulder issues so I don't know why we must remove the 2004 series with Tendulkar's tennis elbow.
Sure ignore 2000 for Lara, I never disputed Lara was better than Sachin overall against McGrath thanks to 99. Though it should be stated McGrath owned Lara in 96 in a humiliating way he never did with Sachin.

What you refuse to accept in that the two full series against McGrath, Tendulkar did well.

all in all, I agree that Sachin was generally a better player of fast bowling than Lara but He's not all that achieved against great fast bowling either, he has one great pacer he scored against in late career but otherwise not all that against great bowling attacks including a great fast bowler.
Tendulkar did well against McGrath in his two series he played and against Ambrose in his only series against him.

It's really odd you can see series context for Trueman when you were arguing to exclude series due to injury but choose to ignore it for Sachin.
 
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subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The worst argument against Tendulkar is that I am going to judge how he did against Donald and 2Ws based on how he did against Hansie and Saqlain. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The other silly argument is we should ignore Lara in the late 90s because he was in bad form (which was of his own making).
 

Johan

International Coach
Irrelevant to his performance against Donald.
It's relevant though, 5 dismissals against Donald and 5 against Cronje, in the 11 games he played with Donald, Sachin was dismissed by Donald 5 times, only averaged 32.90 and most of these games came during Sachin's peak, that's an issue no matter how much you want to pretend it's not.

Bad form is no excuse. Injuries and age are valid excuses. Especially when part of that is due to Lara's own lack of professionalism.
Sure, but generally struggling against great bowling lineups when you're at the bottom of your career is worse than struggling against great bowling lineups when you're at the peak of your career.

Again, the first was his debut series and Waqar had debuted and Wasim hadn't peaked yet. That performance is irrelevant. The second series neither Wasim and Waqar dismissed him and he played them comfortably.
Back to point A, you don't play singular bowlers, it doesn't mean much if you play Marshall well if you get out to Clyde Butts, your ability doesn't actually transform into anything relevant in Cricketing context against the top bowlers at that point.

It's not rewarding. We are asking who is better versus these specific pacers, Saqlain and Hansie are irrelevant. And Lara also had issues against Saqlain.
the point of being great against good fast bowlers is outputting runs against great attacks, even if you play Bumrah well and get out to Siraj, you're not achieving anything inherently superior to what someone who gets out against Bumrah and scores against the rest.

Sure ignore 2000 for Lara, I never disputed Lara was better than Sachin overall against McGrath thanks to 99. Though it should be stated McGrath owned Lara in 96 in a humiliating way he never did with Sachin.
Sure, Lara also has the greatest series of all time against a raging McGrath in 98/99, so that balances out pretty well.

What you refuse to accept in that the two full series against McGrath, Tendulkar did well.
I don't see where? I said I'm willing to ignore Sachin's 2004 if you are willing to ignore Lara's failiures in 2000.

Tendulkar did well against McGrath in his two series he played and against Ambrose in his only series against him..
42, which is decent.

It's really odd you can see series context for Trueman when you were arguing to exclude series due to injury but choose to ignore it for Sachin.
Did not refuse, ignore Lara's 2000 and I'd ignore Sachin's 2004.
 

Johan

International Coach
The other silly argument is we should ignore Lara in the late 90s because he was in bad form (which was of his own making).
You seem very emotionally charged on this topic, I didn't say we should ignore the entire late 90s for Lara, I'm just pointing out how Sachin played great attacks at his peak and still averaged 30 against, 32 against the saffers, 42 with a frontline Australia etc.

The worst argument against Tendulkar is that I am going to judge how he did against Donald and 2Ws based on how he did against Hansie and Saqlain. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Again, I conceded Sachin is better against fast bowling than Lara in the post you're quoting, it's just that getting out to Cronje and Donald yeilds the same result ---> IE, neither is actually accomplished against great pace attacks, one way or the other. Nobody is saying "Lara and Sachin are equal against great fast bowling" but moreso that their output and results against attacks with great bowlers is relative, one way or the other.
 

Johan

International Coach
I mean, it's only one series but sure. Neither is that great in Aus. Though Lara has McGrath tons so I guess I am fine giving him the edge.
No. He played 4 games in the 1970 ROW XI in Australia series and averaged 27, total he played 7 games against Lillee in Australia and averaged 23, never made a hundred, actually not even a 75.

Overall that would be 7 games against each other:

Gavaskar - 307 runs @ 23.62 (HS 70)
Lillee - 45 wkts @ 20.76 (6.4 WPM)

credit to @Qlder, why do you think I said 25 instead of 20
 
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