Botham vs Jadeja (batting)

[capt_Luffy]

Yes that Botham most of his career was solidly good and then dropped at the end.

Yes as I have stated Jadeja at no.6 has been almost exclusively at the time of last three four years when I consider him specialist quality. But not overall because it's a fraction of overall innings.

I am sorry, but 2 points drop over 7 years is practically nothing. He played 8 matches over 5 years ffs.

You counting what he does matters less here. In reverse to Botham, without his first 3 years, Jadeja averages 5 runs higher in Tests. Over 10 years.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No I gave minor wins to Jadeja for that. But I explained why I don't consider them clinchers.

As usual you don't like that and are having an emotional reaction.

As I explained as well, I don't consider century count and 1 spot higher batting position, much due to having a batter keep, a clincher as well.

And as usual, you are being obtuse and having a one eyed look.

 

[subshakerz]

I am sorry, but 2 points drop over 7 years is practically nothing. He played 8 matches over 5 years ffs.

You counting what he does matters less here. In reverse to Botham, without his first 3 years, Jadeja averages 5 runs higher in Tests. Over 10 years.

We already established that raw overall average isn't what we are measuring them on. Are you backtracking?

 

[subshakerz]

As I explained as well, I don't consider century count and 1 spot higher batting position, much due to having a batter keep, a clincher as well.

And as usual, you are being obtuse and having a one eyed look.

Not what you said earlier. You said they were solid points.

 

[sayon basak]

We already established that raw overall average isn't what we are measuring them on. Are you backtracking?

can you please summarize the arguments to support "Botham and it's not close"?

 

[subshakerz]

can you please summarize the arguments to support "Botham and it's not close"?

No I switched to it's close. Giving benefit of doubt Jadeja will keep this form going.

 

[ma1978]

We don't need to debate your team. Fact is Botham did bat top 6 his career and you admitted that's to his favor.

And he was bad at it. We’re not debating where he batted which doesn’t matter (Daren Ganga opened the batting) we are debating whether he was any good and if he was good, it doesn’t show up in his numbers

 

[sayon basak]

No I switched to it's close. Giving benefit of doubt Jadeja will keep this form going.

It's fascinating that you and Luffy voted for the same option.

 

[subshakerz]

And he was bad at it. We’re not debating where he batted which doesn’t matter (Daren Ganga opened the batting) we are debating whether he was any good and if he was good, it doesn’t show up in his numbers

Those were the norm range for his time.

 

[subshakerz]

It's fascinating that you and Luffy voted for the same option.

Wait @capt_Luffy you think Botham is better?

 

[Randomfan]

If Botham was so good why were his numbers so bad. He had no business being a frontline bat.

He wasn't that good but not bad as well.



During Jadeja's career, there are 5 bowling sides averaging below 32 per wickets. Ind, Aus, SA, NZ and Eng.

Jadeja against Aus, SA, NZ, Eng - 65 tests - avg 34 - 3 tons 21 half tons - That's a fantistic number for anyone batting 6/7 position

Jadeja has done very well given a vast majority of tests ( 65 out of 85) came against bowling sides averaging below 32. If Jadeja plays weaker bowling teams a lot more, his numbers will go up.

Nothing against Botham to cash in against sides like Ind( bowling avg 36-37), but his career avg of 33, performance against good sides, Performacne against not so good sides, ton counts, half ton counts etc all are part of his career. We can't take just one and ignore other. We can sure givce different weight to different factors based on how we value them though.


Not one to one comparison, but using the same filter, there were only two bowling sides during Botham's career which averaged below 32 per wickets. WI and Pak. Botham against WI & Pak - 34 tests - avg 25 2 tons and 7 half ton. Nothing to suggest that he was that good if you combine it with his career avg of 33. But then we can't ingore his 14 tons as well. As I said, everything is part of his record.

Right now Jadeja is slighly below Botham for me. 2-3 more good series situation may flip for me. Jadeja is underrated by majority of posters here. It's been 8 years and counting for Jadeja doing well with bat. It's very impressive given India plays most of cricket against top sides and pitches been normally harder to bat in the last 8 years.

 

[capt_Luffy]

We already established that raw overall average isn't what we are measuring them on. Are you backtracking?

I ain't. But saying someone averaging 42 isn't frontline bat is bullcrap. As is the fact mentioning Jadeja suffers more from early years than Botham from his latter ones, as he hardly played when he was truly awful.

Not what you said earlier. You said they were solid points.

They are, but I think WI is equally solid atleast, if not more

 

[subshakerz]

I ain't. But saying someone averaging 42 isn't frontline bat is bullcrap. As is the fact mentioning Jadeja suffers more from early years than Botham from his latter ones, as he hardly played when he was truly awful.

Those figures can be misleading because I don't think he makes the top 6 until 2022 when he showed the ability to stay longer at the crease, the mark of a test quality specialist.

 

[Randomfan]

Why isn't he expected?

I won't bat Botham at 1/2/3/4/5 as well given his batting avg of 33.

Just because you bat at 1/2/3/4/5 , it does not make you better. If you are making a case for batting in 1-5, you should be averaging higher in your career and not in lower 30s.

 

[subshakerz]

I won't bat Botham at 1/2/3/4/5 as well given his batting avg of 33.

Just because you bat at 1/2/3/4/5 , it does not make you better. If you are making a case for batting in 1-5, you should be averaging higher in your career and not in lower 30s.

We don't need to debate we agree Botham was better

 

[capt_Luffy]

Those figures can be misleading because I don't think he makes the top 6 until 2022 when he showed the ability to stay longer at the crease, the mark of a test quality specialist.

His was making consistent runs from 2016 onwards. Just because you feel he wasn't there doesn't means he wasn't there though.

 

[subshakerz]

His was making consistent runs from 2016 onwards. Just because you feel he wasn't there doesn't means he wasn't there though.

Again you admitted you wouldn't have him in your top 6 in that period

 

[capt_Luffy]

Again you admitted you wouldn't have him in your top 6 in that period

Neither will I have Botham though

 

[subshakerz]

Neither will I have Botham though

Well you agree Botham is better

 

[Rob Wesley]

He wasn't that good but not bad as well.



During Jadeja's career, there are 5 bowling sides averaging below 32 per wickets. Ind, Aus, SA, NZ and Eng.

Jadeja against Aus, SA, NZ, Eng - 65 tests - avg 34 - 3 tons 21 half tons - That's a fantistic number for anyone batting 6/7 position

Jadeja has done very well given a vast majority of tests ( 65 out of 85) came against bowling sides averaging below 32. If Jadeja plays weaker bowling teams a lot more, his numbers will go up.

Nothing against Botham to cash in against sides like Ind( bowling avg 36-37), but his career avg of 33, performance against good sides, Performacne against not so good sides, ton counts, half ton counts etc all are part of his career. We can't take just one and ignore other. We can sure givce different weight to different factors based on how we value them though.


Not one to one comparison, but using the same filter, there were only two bowling sides during Botham's career which averaged below 32 per wickets. WI and Pak. Botham against WI & Pak - 34 tests - avg 25 2 tons and 7 half ton. Nothing to suggest that he was that good if you combine it with his career avg of 33. But then we can't ingore his 14 tons as well. As I said, everything is part of his record.

Right now Jadeja is slighly below Botham for me. 2-3 more good series situation may flip for me. Jadeja is underrated by majority of posters here. It's been 8 years and counting for Jadeja doing well with bat. It's very impressive given India plays most of cricket against top sides and pitches been normally harder to bat in the last 8 years.

Do you reckon he got benefited via not outs too? Avg of 37 for someone with 5 tons in 85 tests is quite low.