Botham vs Jadeja (batting)

[capt_Luffy]

If the roles were reversed, I wouldn't mind Jadejas WI record that much because I don't consider him a full specialist bat quality yet.

The main point which I don't see you disagreeing with is that both had mixed bag records versus countries.

The big distinction is one faced consistently the top six batting pressure and has many more tons.

It's a lie btw. And the fault is, the record isn't just below quality of a specialist bat, it's below quality by any standards.

I disagree. Jadeja's record are much more inline and balanced vs top countries he faced than Botham. You can't just shove it down as "mixed bag" because it's a negative now.

The big distinction, you are so wilfully ignoring, is one averaged 21, and the other 28 and 29. These are nowhere the same.

 

[subshakerz]

It's a lie btw. And the fault is, the record isn't just below quality of a specialist bat, it's below quality by any standards.

I disagree. Jadeja's record are much more inline and balanced vs top countries he faced than Botham. You can't just shove it down as "mixed bag" because it's a negative now.

The big distinction, you are so wilfully ignoring, is one averaged 21, and the other 28 and 29. These are nowhere the same.

if your selling point on Jadeja is sub 30 averages as proof of bakance then yeah it's not convincing.

Isn't really some big advantage with their overall records except Botham with a much higher ceiling and more consistent pressure faced. Points that cannot be doubted.

 

[capt_Luffy]

if your selling point on Jadeja is sub 30 averages as proof of bakance then yeah it's not convincing.

Isn't really some big advantage with their overall records except Botham with a much higher ceiling and more consistent pressure faced. Points that cannot be doubted.

Your selling point of Botham is literally "oh yeah, he averaged 21, but Jadeja also did 28 and 29". Btw, Botham averages 29 to Australia as well.

That's because you are obtusely ignoring both the factors in favour Jadeja, not being a waste of space against his Strongest opponent and Averaging a healthy 5 more runs. Also a much better away record. Points which shan't be doubted, but you will doubt anyways.

 

[subshakerz]

Your selling point of Botham is literally "oh yeah, he averaged 21, but Jadeja also did 28 and 29". Btw, Botham averages 29 to Australia as well.

That's because you are obtusely ignoring both the factors in favour Jadeja, not being a waste of space against his Strongest opponent and Averaging a healthy 5 more runs. Also a much better away record. Points which shan't be doubted, but you will doubt anyways.

My selling point on Botham is tons and batting position which you have accepted.

I accepted that Jadeja underperformed less against best teams, but I explained why it's a minor point while you think averaging sub 30 is a clincher.

If you bring his average, I will bring Bothams superior RPI.

 

[capt_Luffy]

My selling point on Botham is tons and batting position which you have accepted.

I accepted that Jadeja underperformed less against best teams, but I explained why it's a minor point while you think averaging sub 30 is a clincher.

If you bring his average, I will bring Bothams superior RPI.

I think your explanation is half arsed and being wilfully ignorant, trying to significantly lessen it.
Botham's RPI is half as much more as Jadeja's average. Not to mention Average is way better stat anyways for a very valid reason.

 

[subshakerz]

I think your explanation is half arsed and being wilfully ignorant, trying to significantly lessen it.
Botham's RPI is half as much more as Jadeja's average. Not to mention Average is way better stat anyways for a very valid reason.

Would you consider Imran better than Botham based on average?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Would you consider Imran better than Botham based on average?

Depends. He has a shot but his batting mostly shone when he gave up bowling. That version of Imran can't be considered an AR

 

[subshakerz]

Depends.

As in, no, you wouldn't based on average. You need other factors.

So there goes your Jadeja average argument.

 

[capt_Luffy]

As in, no, you wouldn't based on average. You need other factors.

So there goes your Jadeja average argument.

Your are being an ass yk? The other factors for Jadeja like:

1) More balanced Home and Away record
2) Not sucking to the best team

Which you just brush off lol.

 

[subshakerz]

Your are being an ass yk? The other factors for Jadeja like:

1) More balanced Home and Away record
2) Not sucking to the best team

Which you just brush off lol.

Great let's deal with these other factors.

Home/away:
Yes his home record goes to his credit. Away, not so much because he was dropped for much of his career so didn't get to play many full test series, and in the most challenging conditions, SA, he hardly played and sucked in what he did, and not much in NZ and SL too. Never scored a ton outside England. Overall a minor win based on home.

Best teams:
Sorry but 'not sucking' isn't a clear win. He was below par. Botham was worse. Again this is a minor win.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Great let's deal with these other factors.

Home/away:
Yes his home record goes to his credit. Away, not so much because he was dropped for much of his career so didn't get to play many full test series, and in the most challenging conditions, SA, he hardly played and sucked in what he did, and not much in NZ and SL too. Never scored a ton outside England. Overall a minor win based on home.

Best teams:
Sorry but 'not sucking' isn't a clear win. He was below par. Botham was worse. Again this is a minor win.

Jadeja and Botham has an almost equal Home/Away split. So that's not true at all that his Away numbers are more protected than Botham's. SA not playing is fine, but if you will bash him for literally one match (as no one counts the 2nd), I think you are being very dishonest. Jadeja's away record in Australia and especially England is top tier.

Not sucking>>>sucking. No other way around it no matter the tantrums. It's not an opinion but a fact. Jadeja vs Aus and SA are perfectly fine, Botham vs WI is not.

 

[Randomfan]

I rate Botham slightly ahead, but average runs scored by bastmen in Ind-Aus matches when Jadeja played was 29.xx. I won't call Jadeja averaging 29.xx when batting 6th or lower against Aus below par. It's very good.

Are any of you seriously expect 6th or lower batsmen to average 40 against best opposition when entire team is averaging 29? That's unrealistic.

 

[Coronis]

iirc the worst team Botham played was SL, not India

 

[Rob Wesley]

@capt_Luffy , Jadeja would improve his away record if he plays SL and WI a bit more. He hasn’t played them enough.

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja and Botham has an almost equal Home/Away split. So that's not true at all that his Away numbers are more protected than Botham's. SA not playing is fine, but if you will bash him for literally one match (as no one counts the 2nd), I think you are being very dishonest. Jadeja's away record in Australia and especially England is top tier.

So Jadeja averaging 34 in Aus with no tons is top tier? Give me a break. I would still take Botham in Aus. And Botham was great in India and very good in NZ while poor in WI. Overall Botham was more tested.

Jadeja was protected in terms of not playing full series often and not enough in SA.

Not sucking>>>sucking. No other way around it no matter the tantrums. It's not an opinion but a fact. Jadeja vs Aus and SA are perfectly fine, Botham vs WI is not.

You admitted that if it were Rahane it would be a negative. So it's only a minor win vs Botham.

 

[subshakerz]

@capt_Luffy , Jadeja would improve his away record if he plays SL and WI a bit more. He hasn’t played them enough.

And especially SA.

 

[subshakerz]

I rate Botham slightly ahead, but average runs scored by bastmen in Ind-Aus matches when Jadeja played was 29.xx. I won't call Jadeja averaging 29.xx when batting 6th or lower against Aus below par. It's very good.

Are any of you seriously expect 6th or lower batsmen to average 40 against best opposition when entire team is averaging 29? That's unrealistic.

That's pretty silly. Any top 6 bat averaging sub 30 in those games would be considered below par.

If you are saying that Jadeja shouldn't be expected to bat their level, I agree. It's because he wasn't as good.

 

[capt_Luffy]

So Jadeja averaging 34 in Aus with no tons is top tier? Give me a break. I would still take Botham in Aus. And Botham was great in India and very good in NZ while poor in WI. Overall Botham was more tested.

Jadeja was protected in terms of not playing full series often and not enough in SA.


You admitted that if it were Rahane it would be a negative. So it's only a minor win vs Botham.

Jadeja played multiple valuable innings in Australia. This ton/no ton approch is ****. Viv had 10 less tons than Gavaskar, shan't be a dealbreaker. Jadeja's batting record in Australia is very good. And yes, Botham was Great in India, which by far the worst bowling side of his Era. Mid in Pakistan in some flat tracks. Good in NZ yes. And 12 avg in WI. Jadeja is clearly a better batsman away. Has already mentioned SA, can count for not playing but not as a failure really.
For Rahane, Botham's Aussie record would be negative as a whole. Clearly I ain't doing that here.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's pretty silly. Any top 6 bat averaging sub 30 in those games would be considered below par.

If you are saying that Jadeja shouldn't be expected to bat their level, I agree. It's because he wasn't as good.

Exactly. And neither was Botham. You are running with Jadeja not frontline good/Botham frontline good, while that's just not true. Over career, Botham averages 21 to WI, 29 to Australia, 32 to Pak. Only Great to the weakest team of his time. These are not frontline numbers. No one treats him as one. Yes, he was frontline quality over a fair few years, but so was ****ing Jadeja. You are just delusional regarding this.

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja played multiple valuable innings in Australia. This ton/no ton approch is ****. Viv had 10 less tons than Gavaskar, shan't be a dealbreaker. Jadeja's batting record in Australia is very good. And yes, Botham was Great in India, which by far the worst bowling side of his Era. Mid in Pakistan in some flat tracks. Good in NZ yes. And 12 avg in WI. Jadeja is clearly a better batsman away. Has already mentioned SA, can count for not playing but not as a failure really.
For Rahane, Botham's Aussie record would be negative as a whole. Clearly I ain't doing that here.

Botham had some fine innings in Aus too. Would you consider Jadejas record in Aus as good if he was Rahane? I don't think you would. More of your double standards.

And suddenly you call Jadeja top tier in Aus and now very good. I don't think you are clear in your own mind.

Botham played 1 test in Pakistan. Perhaps bother to look at that when you do your average reading.

Botham was actually very good in NZ vs Hadlee. More impressive than Jadeja in Aus.