Better batsman : Ian Botham vs Imran Khan

[Coronis]

Imran Khan
51 Tests. 65 innings.
2494 runs.
Avg of 53.
5 centuries

Allan Lamb
74 Tests. 131 innings.
4264 runs.
Avg of 35.
13 centuries.

18 point average difference between them

Note: Averages don’t always tell the whole story

 

[kyear2]

Bottomline

1. his RPI is too low for his average to mean anything, even at his actual batting peak of 1989-1992 it's a little low but he was an actual great batsman at the time.
2. No, people, he was not a leading Batsman of the world from 1983 forward.
3. His output from 1983 to 1988 is just mid, three total hundreds, two wanker hundreds coming in at 367-5 and 382-4, both against weak bowling, one on a road constructed for an intentional draw, only 6 fifties and a few being great but that is about it, this is not a peak at all. His actual peak is 1989-1992

I pick this bone with Steve Waugh too, so Imran is not much of an exception.

Two points I would like to make here, as pertains to this and another ongoing conversation.

Imran wasn't a top order bat, he wasn't a test standard bat, but an rpi of 27 for a no. 8, even with the down hill skiing is really good. It's more than useful and solidifies any lower order. Is it good enough to justify selection over a clearly better or more diversely skilled bowler? That's up to debate, but for me, not just quite, but it's definitely an argument. But the batting isn't the problem, he's clearly better than any AT bowler.

For the 2nd point, with all of this hypothetical chatter about the Harvey batter and Hazelwood bowler combination, Imran as a good example of any how it's not possible. Imran didn't hit his batting peak late 30's, he stopped bowling as much, and was down on pace. The body can't maintain that sustained level of high performances at both, and could squeeze in enough training for both, even if it could.

What Sobers did in the 60's through '70 was not only unprecedented but ill advised to do.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah ok in a thread about Batsman Imran I think it's much more reasonable to consider Batsman Imran than Bowler-burdened Imran.

But he's being compared to bowling burdened Botham.

 

[kyear2]

1982-1991

Imran Khan scored 2494 runs at an average of 53

View attachment 48521

You do note the output though right? Same as Mark Taylor with almost twice the matches?

This isn't hard.

 

[reyrey]

You do note the output though right? Same as Mark Taylor with almost twice the matches?

This isn't hard.

It clearly is for you as innings batted is the far more important metric

 

[sayon basak]

You do note the output though right? Same as Mark Taylor with almost twice the matches?

This isn't hard.

Imran Khan batted down the order.

 

[DrWolverine]

You do note the output though right? Same as Mark Taylor with almost twice the matches?

This isn't hard.

 

[subshakerz]

how many not outs?

This is really a tired point frankly. Yes we don't give as many points for run output but Imran was excellent at crease occupation and had to bail out Pakistan many times. The NOs are to his credit.

 

[shortpitched713]

I'm not saying that Imran actually deserved to average 50 in that timeframe.

I will. It's a big enough sample size of Tests. Quality =/ Utilization. Imran had enough quality to get runs, and not get out for a 50 average batsman for over 50 Tests. Not every 50 average batsman will look the same. He was on the severely underutilized end of the spectrum (given his role as an essential bowler for a big chunk of his career, understandably so) for a 50 average bat, but one nonetheless.

 

[Johan]

People are unironically deluding themselves into thinking Imran was in the same threshold as Border, Viv and Crowe in batting in that timeframe, insane.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm not going to be equating All-rounder Imran (1974-1988) and Batsman Imran, the prior averaged 42 from 1983 to 1988, arguably did deserve to average under 40 in this timeframe, RPI is 32 and a lack of high quality knocks. Batsman Imran from 1989-1992 can average 50-60 or whatever, his output is with the elites too and much less downhill skiing.

Imran between 80 to 88 had several quality knocks and a MOS based on batting alone in India.

 

[subshakerz]

People are unironically deluding themselves into thinking Imran was in the same threshold as Border, Viv and Crowe in batting in that timeframe, insane.

No he isn't. Nobody thinks that. It's just that his high average is STILL impressive all said and done.

The other side is deluding themselves that since Imrans output as a lower order bat isn't matching a top order, therefore him averaging high while being mainly a bowler should be downplayed for some reason.

 

[Johan]

Imran between 80 to 88 had several quality knocks and a MOS based on batting alone in India.

83-88 was the topic, and I'm saying two of his hundreds were mid and one came on a proper batting track In India which was good, he had some good fifties but Yeah, not exactly seeing how I'm supposed to take his 42 average in the timeframe at face value.

 

[subshakerz]

83-88 was the topic, and I'm saying two of his hundreds were mid and one came on a proper batting track In India which was good, he had some good fifties but Yeah, not exactly seeing how I'm supposed to take his 42 average in the timeframe at face value.

I mean that's fine but his bowling peak started in 1980 and that include a match saving ton against the WI quartet.

But again it depends how much you want to cut from his stated average to his real considered average.

For example, overall Imran is 37 but I give it around 35. His 80 to 88 bowling peak is 40 batting average but I would put that around 37 or so. So I normally deduct 2-3 points based on low output for parity with other bats.

 

[shortpitched713]

People are unironically deluding themselves into thinking Imran was in the same threshold as Border, Viv and Crowe in batting in that timeframe, insane.

Border and Viv averaged more than that in their peak, so I'm not saying he was that skilled. Certainly not as great of a contributor either as top/middle order batsmen who are going to be more utilized.

But not outs aren't a reason to knock down his quality as a bat. It simply never happens over a large sample size that a player can just horde not outs in order to improve their average. They earn them.

 

[subshakerz]

But not outs aren't a reason to knock down his quality as a bat. It simply never happens over a large sample size that a player can just horde not outs in order to improve their average. They earn them.

His not outs are a reflection of his skill.

 

[kyear2]

It clearly is for you as innings batted is the far more important metric

15 less innings wasn't it?

View attachment 48525

Yes ....

 

[shortpitched713]

People are unironically deluding themselves into thinking Imran was in the same threshold as Border, Viv and Crowe in batting in that timeframe, insane.

Is there an actual counterargument here, or just "lol how can this heterodox opinion possibly be valid"

I cede that Imran is not as "great" of a batsman due to the under-utilization from batting position, but he is very high quality as a bat. Something akin to Keith Miller with the ball.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Wow..... Can't believe a bowling allrounder took 15 more innings to score the same amount of runs as the player with literally the best batting average over that period, at practically the same average...... What a shitty batsman I can't believe!!

 

[Johan]

Is there an actual counterargument here, or just "lol how can this heterodox opinion possibly be valid"

I cede that Imran is not as "great" of a batsman due to the under-utilization from batting position, but he is very high quality as a bat. Something akin to Keith Miller with the ball.

.........................................

chill out, Imran's RPI in that timeframe is still 37, his output from 1983-88 is completely mid, his average is 42 but he only has three hundreds and all three coming on roads against the old ball and relatively dissapointing attacks, he made some good fifties but he's not even close to Atherton tier bats for 1983-88 period, now he might be close to a great batter for 1989-1991, but that's just 2 years and 1 test.