Asif vs Akhtar

[subshakerz]

So overall it's Akhtar for me but that first 12 month period of Asif is arguably the best bowling period I have seen from a Pakistani pacer in my cricket watching and I have seen peak Waqar and Wasim.

I am sorry but I think this is a bit of rose tinted glasses.

The reality is that if Asif had a long career on Pakistan/UAE wickets he would struggle to take 4 wickets a test there. Even in his peak I can't remember a single performance of his on a wicket that didn't have some life in it. People are being swayed by his mastery in favorable conditions and ignoring how blunted he was when the wicket was dead (though he still bowled tidly).

Whereas Shoaib and Akram had pace and reverse to at least perform sometimes on a pancake, Asif couldn't do that.

This was pretty clear to me in 2009 in Australia when Asif actually bowled tightly the entire series yet the 1st and 3rd test wickets were flat and he lacked penetration, and he could only take wickets in Sydney on a greentop.

Whereas Aamir was a bit all over the place, yet still took a fifer in his first test in Australia through sheer reverse and pace. Which is why I think Mohd Aamir version 1.0 was actually a bigger loss for Pakistan cricket, but that's another story.

 

[subshakerz]

Wasim and Waqar selfishly denied the new ball to Shoaib right until Wasim retired. When Shoaib took it over 2002 onwards to 2007, he took 132 wickets in 30 games at 21. Mind you, this is with breaking down with injuries in half the games perhaps.

In this time, he helped win Pakistan tough series at home against SA and England. He was by far the most effective bowler in world cricket against Australia. He utterly destroyed NZ in soul crushing spells home and away. Even against India he was often the sole threat on batting friendly wickets against an ATG lineup with lame support.

With a bit more discipline and at least one steady pace partner, Shoaib could have achieved so much more. But he was a unique threat. The fact that he didn't take 200 wickets is a travesty.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Wasim and Waqar selfishly denied the new ball to Shoaib right until Wasim retired. When Shoaib took it over 2002 onwards to 2007, he took 132 wickets in 30 games at 21. Mind you, this is with breaking down with injuries in half the games perhaps.

In this time, he helped win Pakistan tough series at home against SA and England. He was by far the most effective bowler in world cricket against Australia. He utterly destroyed NZ in soul crushing spells home and away. Even against India he was often the sole threat on batting friendly wickets against an ATG lineup with lame support.

With a bit more discipline and at least one steady pace partner, Shoaib could have achieved so much more. But he was a unique threat. The fact that he didn't take 200 wickets is a travesty.

He is record against Aussies is pretty poor tho.

 

[subshakerz]

He is record against Aussies is pretty poor tho.

Talking about post 2002 when he played them in the UAE and in Australia in 2004. This peak period:

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Shoaib was a hot mess in the 98 and 99 series against them prior to hitting his peak.

But he still could a spell like this on a flat wicket.

 

[BazBall21]

Akhtar. Asif was special too though.

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah Shoaib vs NZ is enough to put him in some elite tier for me. Never have I seen non minnow batsmen so helpless and scared against a bowler

Even McWarne vs England wasn't as completely chaotic as what Shoaib could do the kiwi batsmen...

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah Shoaib vs NZ is enough to put him in some elite tier for me. Never have I seen non minnow batsmen so helpless and scared against a bowler

Even McWarne vs England wasn't as completely chaotic as what Shoaib could do the kiwi batsmen...

Shoaib averages 5 as a bowler against NZ!

 

[Xuhaib]

I am sorry but I think this is a bit of rose tinted glasses.

The reality is that if Asif had a long career on Pakistan/UAE wickets he would struggle to take 4 wickets a test there. Even in his peak I can't remember a single performance of his on a wicket that didn't have some life in it. People are being swayed by his mastery in favorable conditions and ignoring how blunted he was when the wicket was dead (though he still bowled tidly).

Whereas Shoaib and Akram had pace and reverse to at least perform sometimes on a pancake, Asif couldn't do that.

This was pretty clear to me in 2009 in Australia when Asif actually bowled tightly the entire series yet the 1st and 3rd test wickets were flat and he lacked penetration, and he could only take wickets in Sydney on a greentop.

Whereas Aamir was a bit all over the place, yet still took a fifer in his first test in Australia through sheer reverse and pace. Which is why I think Mohd Aamir version 1.0 was actually a bigger loss for Pakistan cricket, but that's another story.

I am talking about Asif pre first ban and elbow surgery, I have no doubt he would have done well in sub cont when he bowled average 85 mph, its a small sample size but he has 26 wickwts in 4 tests in Asia in this period . By 2009 his average pace had reduced to 80 mph and became more condition dependent.

Agree on Amir 1.0 looked an outstanding prospect with a very high ceiling.Shaheen is atleast a tier or two below 2010 Amir though he's better then the 2016 version.

 

[mr_mister]

Shoaib averages 5 as a bowler against NZ!

Yeah, 3 fivefers in 3 innings. The 6/11 was especially nuts, all bowled or lbw, and just the visual of it all... Like some pretty talented batsmen literally looked clueless and club level against him that series

Pity he didn't get to play more tests against them in his peak because they just didn't have an answer for him

 

[Xuhaib]

Yeah, 3 fivefers in 3 innings. The 6/11 was especially nuts, all bowled or lbw, and just the visual of it all... Like some pretty talented batsmen literally looked clueless and club level against him that series

Pity he didn't get to play more tests against them in his peak because they just didn't have an answer for him

Yeah it's ironic it's the beating he took from them in WC11 that ended his career.

 

[honestbharani]

Shoaib averages 5 as a bowler against NZ!

Yeah but Sami probably averages even lesser... ?‍?‍

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah it's ironic it's the beating he took from them in WC11 that ended his career.

Yeah, I guess he was a shell of himself by then. Was quite overweight iirc

Along with the test performances he also demolished them a few times in ODIs around 01/02

Even in the '99 WC SF against them he got MOM. 3 wickets, all bowled, typical for him

 

[subshakerz]

I am talking about Asif pre first ban and elbow surgery, I have no doubt he would have done well in sub cont when he bowled average 85 mph, its a small sample size but he has 26 wickwts in 4 tests in Asia in this period . By 2009 his average pace had reduced to 80 mph and became more condition dependent.

If you may recall, the SL series in 2006 in which Asif excelled was also humid and seaming, as well as the Karachi test against India. He played a 2-tester against SA before his injury in 2007 in Pakistan and Kallis played him fairly comfortably.

Again it's hard to say, but I think he would have struggled to achieve the same success in the UAE.

Then again, if he hadn't spot fixed, Pakistan would play their home games in England and he would double his wicket tally quickly.

 

[BazBall21]

NZ 1990-2010 folded against almost every high pace bowler of any quality but yeah what Shoaib did to them was pretty unprecedented. 1870s type figures.

 

[Kirkut]

Yeah, 3 fivefers in 3 innings. The 6/11 was especially nuts, all bowled or lbw, and just the visual of it all... Like some pretty talented batsmen literally looked clueless and club level against him that series

Pity he didn't get to play more tests against them in his peak because they just didn't have an answer for him

Steroids and too much weight training..

 

[Kirkut]

Yeah Shoaib vs NZ is enough to put him in some elite tier for me. Never have I seen non minnow batsmen so helpless and scared against a bowler

Even McWarne vs England wasn't as completely chaotic as what Shoaib could do the kiwi batsmen...

Probably all the revenge pointing to the Whittaker's bar he wasn't gifted as promised.

 

[_00_deathscar]

For all the wanking about Bond, Ahktar was the true "What if" IMO from that generation. He did still play a decent amount of tests, but in another era/another time/another country, would have been interesting to see how he'd have been managed and handled - and then unleashed. The guy had everything as a bowler, and did it at 150kph+ regularly. Scary.