Ashwin vs Jadeja

subshakerz · 2025-08-24T17:47:30+0100

Randomfan said:
Indian Pacers taken together averaged 38 in SENA during Kumble career. Ashwin/Jadeja would have comfortably be front line with these kind of numbers from pace unit in any era.

Indian pacers have averaged 27 in SENA in the last 10 years. Kumble would be as much as non-factor as Ashwin/Jadeja in this period.

Some one playing more, or playing a bigger role in certain period is shaped by not just how good they are, it's also shaped by how good other 10 players are. When pace unit evarges 38, it's very easy to average 38 for an spinner and still be one of the front bowlers.

Kumble already averages better in SENA than Ashwin and Jadeja despite having far worse bowling support.

If you switch their bowling support, you are going to end up with a near 10 point difference in their SENA averages and it will be clear Kumble is the superior away bowler.

subshakerz · 2025-08-24T17:49:18+0100

Randomfan said:
I was just presenting a reason for Ashwin/jadeja not playing as big role as Kumble when playing in SENA. I think , they have played a big role in two Aus series wins. So it's SEN.

Kumble in Aus in the 2000s took 44 wickets in 7 games against an ATG lineup. He outstrips Ashwin Jadeja in Aus.

Randomfan · 2025-08-24T19:03:07+0100

subshakerz said:
Kumble already averages better in SENA than Ashwin and Jadeja despite having far worse bowling support.

If you switch their bowling support, you are going to end up with a near 10 point difference in their SENA averages and it will be clear Kumble is the superior away bowler.

These assumptions are silly. You can say that he may have averaged lower or higher based on XYZ factors, but 10 points difference? Kumble was very poor outside India for entire first decade.

You are arguing that if he was playing alongside Bumrah and Co. he would have done better but some one can argue that Kumble would have been simply dropped after his 10 years in away games If India had great pace unit with pitch suitable for pacers.

India played with no spinners couple of time due to pacer friendly pitch and having luxury of great pace unit during Kohli time. During Kumble time situation was different. It would have been unthinkable to have India playing without spinner. Indians often played with 2 spinners. Pace unit was just poor and he had no competition in spin as well. We are comparing apple to orange situation here.

Kumble should get credit for getting better in away conditions in his second half of career, but I feel he is getting over hyped a bit here.

Randomfan · 2025-08-24T19:27:14+0100

subshakerz said:
Kumble in Aus in the 2000s took 44 wickets in 7 games against an ATG lineup. He outstrips Ashwin Jadeja in Aus.

That's correct, but Kumble wasn't that impressive when you see all away venues( except Aus ) even in 00s.

If I was a Indian selector, I would have played Ashwin in most games in all venues. Saying that based on watching him, Jadeja and Kumble entire career. Ashwin was simply more skillful bowler.

It's fine if some posters think that Kumble was more suitabale for away games or SENA games. I don't share that view.

subshakerz · 2025-08-24T19:58:40+0100

Randomfan said:
That's correct, but Kumble wasn't that impressive when you see all away venues( except Aus ) even in 00s.

View attachment 49337

If I was a Indian selector, I would have played Ashwin in most games in all venues. Saying that based on watching him, Jadeja and Kumble entire career. Ashwin was simply more skillful bowler.

It's fine if some posters think that Kumble was more suitabale for away games or SENA games. I don't share that view.

Nah sorry, just including WI and SL tilts it. WI was far poorer in Ashwins time and SL it still spinning conditions.

You know I am talking SENA. Stop shifting goalposts.

Just admit that Kumble is demonstrably better in SENA.

subshakerz · 2025-08-24T20:01:23+0100

Randomfan said:
These assumptions are silly. You can say that he may have averaged lower or higher based on XYZ factors, but 10 points difference? Kumble was very poor outside India for entire first decade.

You are arguing that if he was playing alongside Bumrah and Co. he would have done better but some one can argue that Kumble would have been simply dropped after his 10 years in away games If India had great pace unit with pitch suitable for pacers.

India played with no spinners couple of time due to pacer friendly pitch and having luxury of great pace unit during Kohli time. During Kumble time situation was different. It would have been unthinkable to have India playing without spinner. Indians often played with 2 spinners. Pace unit was just poor and he had no competition in spin as well. We are comparing apple to orange situation here.

Kumble should get credit for getting better in away conditions in his second half of career, but I feel he is getting over hyped a bit here.

Sorry but suddenly you are shfting your own argument about difference made by pace support.

Kumble already is around 3-5 points ahead of them based on SENA average.

Now imagine if pace support switched. His average lowers, theirs increased, so yeah nearly 10 point difference makes sense.

Xix2565 · 2025-08-25T00:13:07+0100

subshakerz said:
If you honestly think that Jadeja and Ashwin are as uncontestable selections as Bradman, then you don't know what you are talking about.

I'm pretty sure you don't have any idea here lol. Especially considering your biases here and the generally uninformed commentary from you.

subshakerz said:
Problem was on several of those few turning tracks, Ashwin also underperformed.

They weren't that spin friendly, and he's also had fitness issues at times. I don't know what else to say, it's certainly not like you've shown any clue of actually learning like a human being.

Xix2565 · 2025-08-25T00:21:37+0100

I still don't get this idea of SENA as a high bar for spinners, as if it's somehow possible for a spinner to be a frontline bowler on the type of pace friendly wickets we've seen post 2018. It's also not something past spinners really tackled given how pitches have changed over time. Players like Underwood and such were basically the same sort of players as Ashwin/Jadeja that some people whinge about now. Some eras there were highways for pitches where everyone was useless. And so on.

If you can't acknowledge that then there's no point in participating here because it's just bizarre to see someone claim to be intelligent and then ignore everything that doesn't conform with their preconceived ideas. Either you accept the whole context and adapt your ideas or you give up on being intelligent.

subshakerz · 2025-08-25T03:53:58+0100

Xix2565 said:
I still don't get this idea of SENA as a high bar for spinners, as if it's somehow possible for a spinner to be a frontline bowler on the type of pace friendly wickets we've seen post 2018. It's also not something past spinners really tackled given how pitches have changed over time. Players like Underwood and such were basically the same sort of players as Ashwin/Jadeja that some people whinge about now. Some eras there were highways for pitches where everyone was useless. And so on.

If you can't acknowledge that then there's no point in participating here because it's just bizarre to see someone claim to be intelligent and then ignore everything that doesn't conform with their preconceived ideas. Either you accept the whole context and adapt your ideas or you give up on being intelligent.

Because throughout history, quality spinners have won games in SENA. Forget Warne, Murali. Even Saqlain, Mushtaq, Herath, Lyon, Swann have done that.

Ashwin and Jadeja collectively have over 50 games in SENA and haven't had that major match impact even once. Ashwin hasn't even taken a fifer whereas post 2018 Lyon has taken several in SENA.

So it's a legitimate issue.

Xix2565 · 2025-08-25T03:59:08+0100

subshakerz said:
Because throughout history, quality spinners have won games in SENA. Forget Warne, Murali. Even Saqlain, Mushtaq, Herath, Lyon, Swann have done that.

Ashwin and Jadeja collectively have over 50 games in SENA and haven't had that major match impact even once. Ashwin hasn't even taken a fifer.

So it's a legitimate issue.

Those spinners have often had far more aid from the conditions than you give credit for. Forget this idiotic point and actually think please. If Ashwin and Jadeja got those conditions on a regular basis they would collect more wickets, as shown by performances in WI/SL/BAN that you don't like acknowledging.

I just think that you should stop being hypocritical and idiotic. It's not like it's a genetic condition you know.

ataraxia · 2025-08-25T04:06:07+0100

subshakerz said:
Because throughout history, quality spinners have won games in SENA. Forget Warne, Murali. Even Saqlain, Mushtaq, Herath, Lyon, Swann have done that.

That can't be true. Ashwin and Jadeja are obviously quality spinners well above Mushtaq Ahmed's level and according to you they haven't really "won games" in SENA.

subshakerz · 2025-08-25T04:21:24+0100

ataraxia said:
That can't be true. Ashwin and Jadeja are obviously quality spinners well above Mushtaq Ahmed's level and according to you they haven't really "won games" in SENA.

Tell me a game in SENA where they had a major decisive impact in terms of wickets in a single innings or across a game, not just a contributory role, to set up or seal a victory.

By the way I am not saying Mushtaq is better. Just that even an inferior spinner to Ashwin like Mushtaq was able to achieve a milestone like that, which makes Ashwins absence conspicuous.

subshakerz · 2025-08-25T04:22:16+0100

Xix2565 said:
Those spinners have often had far more aid from the conditions than you give credit for. Forget this idiotic point and actually think please. If Ashwin and Jadeja got those conditions on a regular basis they would collect more wickets, as shown by performances in WI/SL/BAN that you don't like acknowledging.

I just think that you should stop being hypocritical and idiotic. It's not like it's a genetic condition you know.

Give me a break. If in 50 games collectively Ashwin Jadeja haven't done it, then it's not an excuse of just conditions. It's a skill issue.

ataraxia · 2025-08-25T04:33:30+0100

subshakerz said:
By the way I am not saying Mushtaq is better. Just that even an inferior spinner to Ashwin like Mushtaq was able to achieve a milestone like that, which makes Ashwins absence conspicuous.

Ajaz Patel averages under 25 in Bangladesh, unlike R Ashwin, despite being inferior. Conspicuous ngl.

subshakerz · 2025-08-25T04:39:10+0100

ataraxia said:
Ajaz Patel averages under 25 in Bangladesh, unlike R Ashwin, despite being inferior. Conspicuous ngl.

That's a red herring and you know it.

If a SC batsman didn't score a ton in SENA would it be ok to point out that as a legitimate issue and say even lesser bats have done it?

ataraxia · 2025-08-25T04:48:02+0100

subshakerz said:
That's a red herring and you know it.

If a SC batsman didn't score a ton in SENA would it be ok to point out that as a legitimate issue and say even lesser bats have done it?

No lol. Yasir Shah scoring a hundred in SENA doesn't make it worse that Chauhan, Dickwella, or Ashraful didn't and I've got no idea why you'd think so.

subshakerz · 2025-08-25T05:13:50+0100

ataraxia said:
No lol. Yasir Shah scoring a hundred in SENA doesn't make it worse that Chauhan, Dickwella, or Ashraful didn't and I've got no idea why you'd think so.

That's a strawman.

Yasir Shah scoring a hundred in Aus is an outlier. He isn't a regular bat.

Mushtaq Ahmed, Kumble, Saqlain, Herath, Swann, Lyon are all in the same player bracket of quality spinners in recent era as Ashwin who managed the basic milestone in SENA.

Xix2565 · 2025-08-25T05:39:17+0100

subshakerz said:
Tell me a game in SENA where they had a major decisive impact in terms of wickets in a single innings or across a game, not just a contributory role, to set up or seal a victory.

By the way I am not saying Mushtaq is better. Just that even an inferior spinner to Ashwin like Mushtaq was able to achieve a milestone like that, which makes Ashwins absence conspicuous.

subshakerz said:
Give me a break. If in 50 games collectively Ashwin Jadeja haven't done it, then it's not an excuse of just conditions. It's a skill issue.

Adelaide 2018, MCG 2020. Maybe you should take a break, if only to fix whatever neurological condition that's still plaguing you.

subshakerz · 2025-08-25T05:42:16+0100

Xix2565 said:
Adelaide 2018, MCG 2020. Maybe you should take a break, if only to fix whatever neurological condition that's still plaguing you.

Adelaide wasn't a matchwinning performance as we understand it.

MCG 2020 would be close but again I think it's hard pressed to consider a threefer as decisively matchwinning.