Ab de Villiers vs Hashim Amla vs Graeme Smith

[OverratedSanity]

Hayden (and Sehwag) deserve less of an opener tax than guys like Graeme Smith because they both failed in countries where opening is considerably harder than batting lower down. Both sucked in Eng, NZ and SA where the new ball moves a lot more. This isn't to say opening in Aus/Ind is easy though, just less so than those other places imo.

 

[Prince EWS]

Otherwise shouldn't our "best modern XIs" or whatnot simply open with say Viv Richards and Tendulkar, or whomever we think is the most expendable of our specialist bats, and not bother with the whole specialist openers at all?

I usually do get Dravid to open in mine tbf.

 

[BazBall21]

Hayden did better in SA than Smith but that's a hard comparison when one played regularly in SA and the other played a single team.

 

[BazBall21]

And also, I understand Smith's opener tax relative to De Villiers, but Amla did bat top 3 too and had better output under most measures until his late decline which came when he was older than Smith's retirement age. In some very testing conditions too.

 

[shortpitched713]

Actually miscounted, I think a modern top 6 of batsmen whose output is better than any specialist opener could look something like this:

01. Root/Miandad
02. Viv Richards
03. Lara
04. S. Smith
05. Tendulkar
06. Kallis

Point is, they all have a better output than any modern opener, I'd say including Gavaskar. So if we're not giving extra consideration for specialist opening ability, then why does no one ever suggest teams like this?

 

[Prince EWS]

Actually miscounted, I think a modern top 6 of batsmen whose output is better than any specialist opener could look something like this:

01. Root/Miandad
02. Viv Richards
03. Lara
04. S. Smith
05. Tendulkar
06. Kallis

Point is, I'd say they all have a better output than any modern opener, I'd say including Gavaskar. So if we're not giving extra consideration for specialist opening ability, then why does no one ever suggest teams like this?

I think we should, but I think you have a totally different philosophy from 'opener tax' - ie. comparing openers only to other openers and not to batsmen generally with a bit of a bump. I think that's a mistake.

 

[shortpitched713]

I usually do get Dravid to open in mine tbf.

You are alone in this, I'd say.

Edit: Don't worry, it's okay to be alone.

 

[BazBall21]

You are alone in this, I'd say.

Edit: Don't worry, it's okay to be alone.

Well that answers Alice Deejay's 25-year question.

 

[shortpitched713]

I think we should, but I think you have a totally different philosophy from 'opener tax' - ie. comparing openers only to other openers and not to batsmen generally with a bit of a bump. I think that's a mistake.

I think those things intersect very inconsistently in the minds of most CW posters, especially when it comes to making consensus opinions involving openers and/or batting lineup composition.

Yourself being excepted, of course.

 

[shortpitched713]

For now I'm sticking with my opinion of the opener tax being very real, and rather hefty ( middle order runs being worth roughly .894 opener runs, all other things equal ). Until there is evidence that good modern openers often do phase into more run productive middle order batting careers, as the alternative hypothesis would suggest should happen.

 

[ataraxia]

You are alone in this, I'd say.

Edit: Don't worry, it's okay to be alone.

Incorrect

 

[shortpitched713]

Incorrect

So you guys both go Dravid for one of the opener spots, or do you select another middle order bat for the otger spot as well? Why Dravid, and not let's say Ponting, Sangakkkara, Border, or any other number of middle order bat options? Is Dravid just the next one up in your middle order ranking? How often has Dravid actually opened in Tests? Not trying to pick on y'all, just genuinely curious as to how to how this works in your minds.

 

[shortpitched713]

Oh, are you just saying it's not okay to be alone?

 

[ataraxia]

So you guys both go Dravid for one of the opener spots, or do you select another middle order bat for the otger spot as well? Why Dravid, and not let's say Ponting, Sangakkkara, Border, or any other number of middle order bat options? Is Dravid just the next one up in your middle order ranking? How often has Dravid actually opened in Tests? Not trying to pick on y'all, just genuinely curious as to how to how this works in your minds.

I probably don't actually do this due to Barry, but depending on how I'm feeling I could go:

Gavaskar
Dravid
Lara
Tendulkar
Kallis
Viv
Gilchrist +
Imran*
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne/Murali

It just feels like Dravid, with his great defence, would be a better bet opening than Hayden or Sehwag or G Smith and is pretty much straight-up superior to Boycott.

 

[The Sean]

Dravid had a very up and down time of it as an opener - he hit four tons and averaged 42 there, but 13 of his 23 innings at the top of the order were sub-20 scores, including eight in single figures (albeit two of those were not out).

 

[Prince EWS]

Dravid had a very up and down time of it as an opener - he hit four tons and averaged 42 there, but 13 of his 23 innings at the top of the order were sub-20 scores, including eight in single figures (albeit two of those were not out).

I haven't actually checked so I might be off, but I think they mostly sent him up to open when they thought the conditions would be too challenging for their usual rotation of subcontintent heroes like Gambhir, Dhawan, Vijay etc.

 

[The Sean]

I haven't actually checked so I might be off, but I think they mostly sent him up to open when they thought the conditions would be too challenging for their usual rotation of subcontintent heroes like Gambhir, Dhawan, Vijay etc.

You could well be right, I had a quick check of his record as an opener but didn't yet go into the scorecard detail and context.

He was outstanding as an opener against England in 2011, though one of his earlier tons against Pakistan in 2006 was when India put in 410 for the first wicket and Dravid had the best view in the stadium of Sehwag going berko.

Early on he only opened against South Africa, and largely at home, without any success.

 

[Prince EWS]

You could well be right, I had a quick check of his record as an opener but didn't yet go into the scorecard detail and context.

Just checked - 3 Tests at home, 11 away. Ironically he had a much worse time of it at home.

Averaging 80 opening in 5 innings in England was impressive, especially since India lost that series 4-0.

 

[The Sean]

Just checked - 3 Tests at home, 11 away. Ironically he had a much worse time of it at home.

Averaging 80 opening in 5 innings in England was impressive, especially since India lost that series 4-0.

Ha, yep I just updated my response to include the England series and some other detail!

 

[shortpitched713]

It just feels like Dravid, with his great defence, would be a better bet opening than Hayden or Sehwag or G Smith and is pretty much straight-up superior to Boycott.

The great thing in this case, is this isn't just rampant speculation, like it could be in many other such cases. From 14 matches, in 23 innings opening Dravid averaged 42.47. That's your modern greats opener. He's certainly a great bet over Hayden, Sehwag, G Smith. And opening isn't a specialized position, you can just throw in a great defensive middle order bat and it translates perfectly.

(Rolleyes is harsh, but come on man.)