A system to determine individual Total / Home / Away rankings for all teams

tobe_ornot2

Banned
You seem a little obsessed with dissing any ranking system that tells India are doing well.
Nope. If you can show me how and when India beat a "strong" team away then I will gladly retract my statement.

I am discounting the year 2012 because I'm keeping a (4 + current) year window, even If I include 2012 it will barely make any difference because past performances are weighed lesser than latest ones.

An away test win gives you 6 * opponent team strength * weight for how old the win was

A home test win gives you 3 * opponent team strength * weight for how old the win was

An away test draw gives you 1 * opponent team strength * weight for how old the draw was

[Weight by years is 4 for current or (-1) year and then halved for each subsequent year]
[Team strengths are based on the 90 last series played by each team against each team, currently South Africa has the top team strength]
Ok, so how is South Africa's team strength worked out? That is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. YOu have not given any figures yet. For example, England beating SA in SA 2-1, that is a minimum of 12 points yes? Multiply that by "team strength"...but what is the team strength number?

I don't like a lack of transparity in ratings because it does not help the fan.

srbhkshk

International Vice-Captain
Ok, so how is South Africa's team strength worked out? That is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. YOu have not given any figures yet. For example, England beating SA in SA 2-1, that is a minimum of 12 points yes? Multiply that by "team strength"...but what is the team strength number?

I don't like a lack of transparity in ratings because it does not help the fan.
SA's number is 4.545, India and Australia are just a bit below. It is determined using chess style scoring (except that away is again a bit more important [ 4 to 3] and losses give negative points.) for all possible previous series of the 10 test playing teams against each other.

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Nope. If you can show me how and when India beat a "strong" team away then I will gladly retract my statement.

So how many teams beat SL in SL recently? And which side aside from RSA defeated a "strong" team away anyways?

tobe_ornot2

Banned
SA's number is 4.545, India and Australia are just a bit below. It is determined using chess style scoring (except that away is again a bit more important [ 4 to 3] and losses give negative points.) for all possible previous series of the 10 test playing teams against each other.
Ok, so if I was working out SA score for the Australia series win for example, how would I go about it?

they have 2 wins in the most recent series so thats 12 multiplied by Aus points (which are?) and the win I assume gets full weighting as its the most recent series.

Right?

Plus just send me a message with your formula so I can work out the points myself, using the exact numbers you used. That would be the easiest route to prove my assumption wrong.

tobe_ornot2

Banned
So how many teams beat SL in SL recently? And which side aside from RSA defeated a "strong" team away anyways?
Bang went 1-1 in the last finished series in SL. Pak beat them 2-1 the last time they played (the same year in which Ind won). SL did have a very impressive win against Aus though. Not quire sure what SLs home form (not that great) has to do with this.

And aside from SA beating Aus, England have beaten SA in SA, 2-1.

Pakistan went 2-2 just last summer against England. Remember, we are looking at test matches won, not just test series. India playing Eng, Aus and SA away (sadly no Pak series) has wielded a single solitary win from 11 matches. So again, the question remains, how has Ind racked up so many away points according to this system? I'm not saying OP is lying, I simply believe the system is at fault if it does not work properly.

In terms of who is truly the best test side, I have always maintained that an over complicated ranking system is open for corruption and plain stupidity (look at the ICC formula) and that as cricket fans, it is pretty obvious that in the post Aus era, that SA under Smith and Eng for a little bit were the only teams that looked to be winning away and home. Right now, SA is probably the strongest in that regard. Aus, Pak and Ind are all in the same boat, giants at home, minnows away.

srbhkshk

International Vice-Captain
Ok, so if I was working out SA score for the Australia series win for example, how would I go about it?

they have 2 wins in the most recent series so thats 12 multiplied by Aus points (which are?) and the win I assume gets full weighting as its the most recent series.

Right?
Yes it gets full points - Australia's strength is 4.531 , age factor would be 4. So for winning 2 matches they get 2 * 6 * 4.531 * 4 points.

For losing the 1 match they get 1 * (-3) * 1.0139 * 4 points. [ 1.0139 is is Australia's loss strength, this number is used when teams lose a match, it's higher for the lower ranked teams so that you get punished more while losing to a poorer tram]

Do similarly for all teams and series, fix the bottom most team to zero by decreasing their points from all other teams, divide the obtained points by matches * age factor (which can be done for total/home/away separately)

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Bang went 1-1 in the last finished series in SL. Pak beat them 2-1 the last time they played (the same year in which Ind won). SL did have a very impressive win against Aus though. Not quire sure what SLs home form (not that great) has to do with this.

And aside from SA beating Aus, England have beaten SA in SA, 2-1.

Pakistan went 2-2 just last summer against England. Remember, we are looking at test matches won, not just test series. India playing Eng, Aus and SA away (sadly no Pak series) has wielded a single solitary win from 11 matches. So again, the question remains, how has Ind racked up so many away points according to this system? I'm not saying OP is lying, I simply believe the system is at fault if it does not work properly.

In terms of who is truly the best test side, I have always maintained that an over complicated ranking system is open for corruption and plain stupidity (look at the ICC formula) and that as cricket fans, it is pretty obvious that in the post Aus era, that SA under Smith and Eng for a little bit were the only teams that looked to be winning away and home. Right now, SA is probably the strongest in that regard. Aus, Pak and Ind are all in the same boat, giants at home, minnows away.

Right.. Pak that lost to Windies at home is in the same boat as the team no one has defeated at home..

As to the rest of your post, the rankings system did not pull points out of the air. It is based on performances which has been explained to you ad nauseum. You can continue to think rankings do not mean anything coz your entire story is built on "Pak > India" coz I said so. Its obvious from your posting history and all these silly assertions just confirm that there is no point in engaging you in any proper cricketing debate. Have fun denying facts for the short while you may be here.

tobe_ornot2

Banned
Right.. Pak that lost to Windies at home is in the same boat as the team no one has defeated at home..

As to the rest of your post, the rankings system did not pull points out of the air. It is based on performances which has been explained to you ad nauseum. You can continue to think rankings do not mean anything coz your entire story is built on "Pak > India" coz I said so. Its obvious from your posting history and all these silly assertions just confirm that there is no point in engaging you in any proper cricketing debate. Have fun denying facts for the short while you may be here.
I just had to stop right there...Pakistan lost one test at home as have India. What does any of that have to do with what I just wrote? Pakistan have also been the only teams to not lose a test against Aus or Eng at home in the last 5 years or so and the only team to white wash each...ever.

Anyway, you seem to have an obsession iwth turning everything into Pak v India. I sense some insecurities.

tobe_ornot2

Banned
Yes it gets full points - Australia's strength is 4.531 , age factor would be 4. So for winning 2 matches they get 2 * 6 * 4.531 * 4 points.

For losing the 1 match they get 1 * (-3) * 1.0139 * 4 points. [ 1.0139 is is Australia's loss strength, this number is used when teams lose a match, it's higher for the lower ranked teams so that you get punished more while losing to a poorer tram]

Do similarly for all teams and series, fix the bottom most team to zero by decreasing their points from all other teams, divide the obtained points by matches * age factor (which can be done for total/home/away separately)
Using this system India does not end up with 79 away points.

srbhkshk

International Vice-Captain
Using this system India does not end up with 79 away points.
I don't know how to reply to that.

They do?

srbhkshk

International Vice-Captain
I just had to stop right there...Pakistan lost one test at home as have India.
That's incorrect, Pakistan has lost 4 tests in the last 4 and a half years.

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I just had to stop right there...Pakistan lost one test at home as have India. What does any of that have to do with what I just wrote? Pakistan have also been the only teams to not lose a test against Aus or Eng at home in the last 5 years or so and the only team to white wash each...ever.

Anyway, you seem to have an obsession iwth turning everything into Pak v India. I sense some insecurities.

Everyone else senses some irony from that post. Weren't you the one arguing that Pak has some psychological advantage over India since they won the last bilateral ODI series between the two teams 10 years ago?

tobe_ornot2

Banned
That's incorrect, Pakistan has lost 4 tests in the last 4 and a half years.
If you read the posts between me and the other guy, you will see we were talking about recent times.

Also, can you show me the equations where you added up India's away and home records? You can message me instead of posting on here as you seem quite guarded about your formula.

Also, why have you used 4 years as a cut off? Why not 5? Or why not 1?

I will be waiting and please, no more obscure replies. I want a proper response with numerical data for each match you added up.

Everyone else senses some irony from that post. Weren't you the one arguing that Pak has some psychological advantage over India since they won the last bilateral ODI series between the two teams 10 years ago?
Nope.

Unless you're talking about ODIs then I mentioned that Pak v India in CTs should not carry the same psychological disadvantage as it does in World Cups but again, wha tdoes that have to do with this thread?

srbhkshk

International Vice-Captain
If you read the posts between me and the other guy, you will see we were talking about recent times.
I've read them well enough, and as you prove from you statement just 1 line below, there is no definition of "recent times". It can be anything.

Also, why have you used 4 years as a cut off? Why not 5? Or why not 1?
4 seemed right to me, there is no other reason.

Also, can you show me the equations where you added up India's away and home records? You can message me instead of posting on here as you seem quite guarded about your formula.

India's numbers are (All points and # of matches are adjusted by age and home/away factor)
1 Loss and 1 Draw against SA - ( + 0.77 Points in 1 adjusted match)
1 Loss and 1 Draw against NZ - ( -1.34 Points in 2 adjusted matches)
3 Losses, 1 Draw and 1 Win against England ( + 3.45 points in 5 adjusted matches)
2 Losses and 2 Draws against Australia ( + 2.98 points in 4 adjusted matches)
1 Draw against Bangladesh ( + 3.77 points in 2 adjusted matches)
2 Wins and 1 loss against Sri Lanka ( +56 points in 6 adjusted matches)
2 Wins and 2 draws against WI (+131 points in 16 adjusted matches)

Scale up all points from draws and wins by 16% , Scale up all points from losses by 3% (This is done for all teams to balance for the fact that total opposing strength teams face is not the same , SA is given the maximum boost in win points , Zim the max in loss points) . Add up all the points. Add 50 to them to bring Zimbabwe (least ranker) to zero. Divide the obtained points by # of matches.