Ashwin vs Jadeja

[subshakerz]

@subshakerz, you are making a valid point with regards to Kumble though.

Kumble played 69 tests away from home and 63 at home.

Ashwin played only 41 tests away from home and 65 at home.

That’s why Ashwin averages so much better(23.9) in Tests. He would have averaged 27 over his career if he had a spin partner like Harbhajan instead of Jadeja so Bhajji wasn’t getting picked ahead of Ash overseas.

Jadeja has a similar advantage of home away split.

 

[Xix2565]

We'll just ignore that playing more Tests can also help you develop further I guess.

 

[subshakerz]

We'll just ignore that playing more Tests can also help you develop further I guess.

Certainly not the case with Jadeja bowling in England.

Anyways it's undeniable that a higher percentage of home games and a better spin partner helps Ashwins average.

 

[Xix2565]

Certainly not the case with Jadeja bowling in England.

Anyways it's undeniable that a higher percentage of home games and a better spin partner helps Ashwins average.

Jadeja hasn't been a frontline bowler either for most of his career there unlike Kumble.

Sure, but that doesn't mean Kumble gets in over both of them in an ATG XI. And so this thread is utterly stupid.

 

[subshakerz]

Sure, but that doesn't mean Kumble gets in over both of them in an ATG XI. And so this thread is utterly stupid.

Great so this invalidates your earlier point of suggesting parity in Kumble and Ashwin averages

And my thread is irrelevant to Kumble being there. I am asking who is more worthy in an Indian ATG.

 

[Xix2565]

Great so this invalidates your earlier point of suggesting parity in Kumble and Ashwin averages

And my thread is irrelevant to Kumble being there. I am asking who is more worthy in an Indian ATG.

It doesn't? The point is that there are a lot of factors that led to Kumble doing better on the road than the other two, but that doesn't make him automatically the superior option in the XI overall. Development over time is one of them, as I've noted with how pitches, injuries, pace development and rotation have hampered Ashwin/Jadeja's to an extent while Kumble's was forced due to being one of the few Indian players who could actually bowl in his era due to lack of support. You just don't want to think about this because it clashes with your preconceived ideas and anything that might make you change your mind is automatically stupid and invalid.

It's like leaving out Bradman in an ATG Aus XI. It's stupid.

 

[ma1978]

Ashwin is a better bowler than Kumble in any and all conditions and under any and all circumstances.

 

[subshakerz]

Ashwin is a better bowler than Kumble in any and all conditions and under any and all circumstances.

Not in SENA.

 

[subshakerz]

It doesn't? The point is that there are a lot of factors that led to Kumble doing better on the road than the other two, but that doesn't make him automatically the superior option in the XI overall. Development over time is one of them, as I've noted with how pitches, injuries, pace development and rotation have hampered Ashwin/Jadeja's to an extent while Kumble's was forced due to being one of the few Indian players who could actually bowl in his era due to lack of support. You just don't want to think about this because it clashes with your preconceived ideas and anything that might make you change your mind is automatically stupid and invalid.

Or maybe he was just better on the road with several key performances that outshine the others.

It's like leaving out Bradman in an ATG Aus XI. It's stupid.

None of these guys are Bradman level. That is stupid.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Hone and away pitches in Kumbles 2000 time were flatter for everyone

Not really away, spinners avged 38.3 in SENA in 2000s....they avged 42.5 there in the 2010s

What people miss completely about these two eras is that the supposedly flat pitches of the 2000s weren't actually worse for spinners than the pitches many nations are producing these days. 2000s era away pitches were flat, yes, but also generally dry and allowed spinners to at least somewhat get into the game and play a role because matches would go the distance and spinners would get a chance to bowl on days 4/5.

In the last several years, India's away pitches have either been total green-tops where the pace bowlers are cleaning up and the spinners are reduced to bit part roles in a match that finishes on day 3 or are green-tops of the other variety that are spicy for 1-2 days and then turn into roads where no one can get any wickets. None of the 2000s spinners had to deal with these kind of conditions.

 

[ma1978]

Not in SENA.

Everywhere, at all times, under all circumstances. Obvious to anyone who has actually watched the cricket

 

[subshakerz]

What people miss completely about these two eras is that the supposedly flat pitches of the 2000s weren't actually worse for spinners than the pitches many nations are producing these days. 2000s era away pitches were flat, yes, but also generally dry and allowed spinners to at least somewhat get into the game and play a role because matches would go the distance and spinners would get a chance to bowl on days 4/5.

In the last several years, India's away pitches have either been total green-tops where the pace bowlers are cleaning up and the spinners are reduced to bit part roles in a match that finishes on day 3 or are green-tops of the other variety that are spicy for 1-2 days and then turn into roads where no one can get any wickets. None of the 2000s spinners had to deal with these kind of conditions.

It's a bit more complicated thant that. Have there been more greentops post 2018? Yes. But also generally bowling friendly pitches as well, with bounce and turn compared to 2000 to 2015.

Even if matches went the distance, spinner average would still be negatively affected, which is the measure he was using. And better pace bowling support does help your average too.

Kumble still had greentops away too in SA like Ashwin. I don't think for example that the pitches Ashwin had in Aus in 2018 and 2021 were worse for him than 2014/15, though yes he was a better bowler in the former.

 

[subshakerz]

Everywhere, at all times, under all circumstances. Obvious to anyone who has actually watched the cricket

You honestly think Ashwin was better in SA than Kumble? Ashwin wasn't even support bowler level. A total nonfactor.

 

[Randomfan]

Indian Pacers taken together averaged 38 in SENA during Kumble career. Ashwin/Jadeja would have comfortably be front line with these kind of numbers from pace unit in any era.

Indian pacers have averaged 27 in SENA in the last 10 years. Kumble would be as much as non-factor as Ashwin/Jadeja in this period.


Some one playing more, or playing a bigger role in certain period is shaped by not just how good they are, it's also shaped by how good other 10 players are. When pace unit evarges 38, it's very easy to average 38 for an spinner and still be one of the front bowlers.

 

[Rob Wesley]

Indian Pacers taken together averaged 38 in SENA during Kumble career. Ashwin/Jadeja would have comfortably be front line with these kind of numbers from pace unit in any era.

Indian pacers have averaged 27 in SENA in the last 10 years. Kumble would be as much as non-factor as Ashwin/Jadeja in this period.


Some one playing more, or playing a bigger role in certain period is shaped by not just how good they are, it's also shaped by how good other 10 players are. When pace unit evarges 38, it's very easy to average 38 for an spinner and still be one of the front bowlers.

It is about support you get as bowlers hunt in pack. Kumble would often come in to bowl when his team was under pump but same wasn’t the case with Ashwin and Jadeja when playing in SENA. Kumble would often have a job to set it up. That’s where his workload becomes high and when no one is there to trouble you, he will often be overbowled and end up with higher averages.

That’s my perspective.

 

[Xix2565]

Or maybe he was just better on the road with several key performances that outshine the others.



None of these guys are Bradman level. That is stupid.

Or maybe you're brainless.

They are as obvious picks as Bradman and about 90% of all ATG XI picks. No need to be so annoyed by the basic fact here.

 

[Xix2565]

with bounce and turn compared to 2000 to 2015.

Hardly any turning tracks in India's SENA tours tbfh. Unless you think wobble seamers are just 130kph+ spinners.

 

[Randomfan]

It is about support you get as bowlers hunt in pack. Kumble would often come in to bowl when his team was under pump but same wasn’t the case with Ashwin and Jadeja when playing in SENA. Kumble would often have a job to set it up. That’s where his workload becomes high and when no one is there to trouble you, he will often be overbowled and end up with higher averages.

That’s my perspective.

That's a reasonble point and nothing wrong in what you are stating.

I was just presenting a reason for Ashwin/jadeja not playing as big role as Kumble when playing in SENA. I think , they have played a big role in two Aus series wins. So it's SEN.

 

[subshakerz]

Or maybe you're brainless.

They are as obvious picks as Bradman and about 90% of all ATG XI picks. No need to be so annoyed by the basic fact here.

If you honestly think that Jadeja and Ashwin are as uncontestable selections as Bradman, then you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[subshakerz]

Hardly any turning tracks in India's SENA tours tbfh. Unless you think wobble seamers are just 130kph+ spinners.

Problem was on several of those few turning tracks, Ashwin also underperformed.