Thala_0710
International Captain
If I wanted that, I'd pick Chandra.
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Ashwin vs Jadeja
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
subshakerz
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Kumble still can win games abroad without compromising on winning high rates at home. He is Indias best spinner.
Thala_0710
International Captain
Yeah, this topic has been thoroughly debated on this forum. Mine (and probably the majority of forum today) probably views Ashwin as the best, as reflected in the bowler polls and world xi votes
I don't get this Kumble overrating tbh. It feels like some people value standing out a bit more (and not in a Bradman way that's actually worth noting and rating highly) without any real consideration for conditions or competition. Especially this away nonsense which basically wants to pretend like all pitches outside of Asia/some WI and SA ones are all so anti-spin across all time that success there is noteworthy.
subshakerz
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Kumble in the 2000s was a good away bowler in mostly flat conditions
And he was worldclass at home.
Not being overrated in the slightest.
Kumble in the 2000s wasn't much better vs his spin counterparts in those conditions compared to Ashwin on the whole, though.
Kumble outside of India since 2000: Averaged 34.43/SR 64 vs other spinners' 43.61/79, and if you use those to determine the match factor (other spinners' averages/Kumble's) you get 1.27, and 1.23 for SR.
Ashwin outside of India: Averaged 30.05/62.45 vs 38.33/69.67, works out to 1.28 and 1.12 respectively.
Rob Wesley
U19 Debutant
I will pick Ashwin at 8 and Kumble at 9 in Indian all time XI. The reason for choosing Ash over Jadeja is that because these all time teams will likely play against other all time teams or great sides, you need specialist quality with bowl.
Ash is far more skillful bowler and possess a wide range of variations so he can always try and make something happen. He and Kumble bowling in tandem can trouble opposition surely.
Jadeja’s safe and defensive batting will not take us too far because he will likely stay not out batting at 7 or 8. Moreover, Kapil won’t have very huge workload so he can probably bring more to the score with his batting which is superlative and he underachieved in it. With such a strong top 5, I won’t mind focusing more on 20 wickets than playing for draw.
Ash is far more skillful bowler and possess a wide range of variations so he can always try and make something happen. He and Kumble bowling in tandem can trouble opposition surely.
Jadeja’s safe and defensive batting will not take us too far because he will likely stay not out batting at 7 or 8. Moreover, Kapil won’t have very huge workload so he can probably bring more to the score with his batting which is superlative and he underachieved in it. With such a strong top 5, I won’t mind focusing more on 20 wickets than playing for draw.
I don't think Kapil was that good of a batter overall though. As much as he might have underachieved you can't just presume he'd be easily better than Jadeja in a lineup where he's still the 3rd seamer and not the 4th. Especially when in such hypotheticals people have wildly differing assumptions on what the pitches might be like, where for example the spinners might not be worth bowling loads of overs.
Rob Wesley
U19 Debutant
Maybe this is down to the fact that Kumble would play all games outside Asia while the other spinners would only play when India felt the pitch had something for spinners.
During Ash time post 2020, Jadeja was often preferred unless he had some injuries.
Rob Wesley
U19 Debutant
Yeah, Kumble was genuine match winner in India in 90s. Just throw his stats at home in 90s to those doubting his credentials.
subshakerz
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Yeah we aren't going to agree since I find those bogus metrics to judge on. Kumble was played on unhelpful tracks whereas Ashwin was dropped. I care more about games they managed to win or deeply impact.
Ashwin played about 5 more matches outside of Asia than Kumble, if that's the condition being set. This includes Zimbabwe and WI, and we don't really acknowledge what happens to Ashwin's and Hardik's fitnesses with regards to playing games.
Your feelings aren't worth anything to be fair. Especially compared to actual numbers.
subshakerz
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Lol games won or impacted aren't feelings
subshakerz
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That doésnt address his point
They are your feelings, not mine to be clear.
It actually does because it shows that Ashwin was being picked as the lead spinner often enough until 2018 onwards where he got injured, Hardik lost his Test fitness and Jadeja's improved batting allowed Jadeja to come in more from then on. If the point is Kumble kept getting picked regardless, well Ashwin's played more games than him anyway.
Rob Wesley
U19 Debutant
Are you sure about this? I don’t think Ashwin played ever more than Jadeja outside Asia let along Kumble.
Jadeja has 33 Tests, Ashwin 32 and Kumble 27 (since 2000, since that was the point of discussion with regards to Kumble's quality).
Rob Wesley
U19 Debutant
The point made is incorrect. Ashwin played least of him, Kumble or Jadeja outside Asia.